Can "homesteaders" survive without government help?

[DJ in WA]

As I and others have stated, I’m fascinated by discovering that many people on a Homesteading site believe that more government is good. I would have thought that homesteaders would be more self-reliant.

I have read, “Government is supposed to take care of us.”

Or, “As soon as the government gets me health care I can afford to get a homestead.”

It is said that we cannot trust self-regulation, but we can trust government regulation. As long as there is gov’t oversight, we don’t need to care, right? I like the way he says it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xir5j...layer_embedded

People mention various government programs they’ve got money from for their farm, or information from extension offices. Seems to be little concern as to where the money for those programs came from.

Few understand that government can only fund its programs through force, as those who refuse to pay taxes will be rounded up by someone with a gun. I would say if you believe in a program, you should be willing to be that guy wielding the gun.

In discussions about NAIS and other issues, it is assumed by many that government programs are the only way to protect us. Or that it is the job of government to protect our livestock markets.

Those who distrust government are called paranoid. I guess these guys were also nutty:

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action. – George Washington

The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. –Thomas Jefferson

That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves. – Thomas Jefferson

The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins; all of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned -- this is the sum of good government. –Thomas Jefferson

The average man does not want to be free. He simply wants to be safe. -H. L. Mencken:

The state is that fictitious entity by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else. - Federic Bastiat.

Most men, after a little freedom, have preferred authority with the consoling assurances and the economy of effort which it brings. - Walter Lippmann

Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men dread it. - George Bernard Shaw

Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. - Daniel Webster

[Spinner]

If a homesteader can't survive without personal gov help, then they aren't a homesteader, they are simply a homesteader wantabe.

We all depend on the gov for the roads we drive on, the schools our children attend, etc. so some gov is necessary, but when it comes to taking farm subsidies, gov handouts, etc. then that's not homesteading, it's suckling the gov teat.

[rambler]

I answered in the other thread, but I appreciate you starting a seperate thread on the topic.

I haven't really seen anyone here _glad_ about govt involvement in things.

The problem is, we live in a society with 250 million people living in cities. These people don't have a clue of what or where food comes from, they want safe food available on the grocery store shelves as all time for a cheap price. These city folk have all the vote, all the money, all the influence. Politicians know to keep these 250 million people happy if they can.

So, cheap food, always available, and precieved to be safe is something all politicians are going to be _FOR_.

And it doesn't matter what you, me, or a few 1000 other folks think.

So Haypoint, me, and _you too_ are going to end up living in that world that the 250 million city folk create.

They want safe food - the govt is going to pass enough laws to make them think it is safe!!!!!!

Haypoint, myself, and others know we end up living in that world. So we try to make it work for us, or at least in spite of all that.

I don't understand what your goals are on this.

'To just be left alone' perhaps?

How does that work? Social security, taxes, licencing of vehicles, schooling, roads, fire & police protection, health care...... Those things already are in your life to some extent. Society is all around us. You are part of it, in some small way.

Like it or not, I'd think you would realize you are ruled by this society to some extent?

If you don't like the new rules coming down around you, I would think you would be watching to see what is coming.

You woulda seen Nais coming years ago - they publicised it quite a bit.

They are publicising the dust rules they are formulating right now. In a few years, we'll see the same deal all over again - instead of Nais, it will be no-dust creating activities allowed. Like - tilling a garden.... Lawn mowing. And so on.

You know most every internal combustion engine - down to a weed wacker - will need a catylitic converter on it in about 2010 I think? And can't burn any oil, so 2-cycle is out. You are aware your freedom to buy anything else is being taken away?

If your freedoms are so special to you, shouldn't you be watching out for these things?

I totally & completely hate these intrusions on my life as much as you do.

But I live in the real world, not the pretend one you seem to have.

Were you surprised about the 2nd hand toy ban that came up in a different thread? I saw that coming a couple years ago. Aren't you aware of your surroundings? Don't you pay attention to those in power in this country - the 250 million folk living in the cities??? They tell politicians to jump, and the politicians ask how high??? Sure the politicians have thier own selfish agenda - most is to make more money for themselves or their friends. They don't really care one bit about you or me and 10 head of cattle. Or whatever. They care about making 250 million people happy so they get the votes of those 250 million people. And if those 250 million say they want safer food laws, the Nais is a coming, and it will roll right over the top of you!!!

I know I'm very much in the minority, and that those 250 million city folk are going to call the shots.

So, I need to be aware of what is coming, and be aware of what the govt is doing, and look out for myself.

I won't stop Nais. But I can maybe influence it a little. Might even get it changed enough to help me, rather than hurt me!!! After all, govt asked _for several years_ for help in how it should be run......

So, hey, if Nais works out to help me, good for me. Why didn't you bother trying to help yourself??????

I don't like Nais, I don't like the govt bothering me much at all. Probably just about almost the exact same way you feel.

BUT, I live in the real world, where 250 million people who don't know much about it are going to set the rules.

I need to make my little corner of the world work within the rules this society sets up.

Your choice of being an ostritch and ignoring those 250 million people until all their rules are already passed is not going to get you too far.

I don't make the rules, I don't really like them either.

But I understand where I am.

To answer your question, homesteaders are much more prepared to live without the govt, but they are part of a very large society that is moving in a different direction, so homesteaders should be far more aware & active in government than the average citizen. Homesteaders should be looking to understand the fears & wants of the average city folk, so their small number can influence laws & regulations in the best possible way.

More and more govt regulation and rule and restrictions are coming our way. It is not what any of us want - not me, not you, not anyone else.

But it is what is. You & I don't control all that much. Neither of us is terribly important.

--->Paul

[rambler]

Govt is here to stay. We are part of a society, which is run by 250 million city folk who want cheap, safe food available year-round on the grocery shelves. They don't care one bit about 10 head of cattle or chickens out in the boonies, and actually consider them to be kinda gross & filthy.

That is reality, and you can't escape it any more than I can.

Homesteaders are more prepared to live without govt than most people in this country.

But those 250 million people living in cities will always have more power because there are so many more of them.

A smart homesteader is aware of all this, and realizes they have to work to fit in the society we have. Be aware of what is worrying & bothering the city folk, and be prepared well ahead of the laws that come from this worry. Work with politicians to create somewhat fairer laws & regulations.

Back in the 1960's folks were worried that food would cost too much.

So we have govt farm programs to ensure food production is always high & cheap in the USA. None of those 250 million city folk really care about farmers, or want them to have taxpayer money. What those 250 million taxpayers want is lots of cheap, cheap food available, and so politicians make _sure_ that happens with govt subsidies.

Since then city folk have been worried about food safety, energy use, 'green' issues, climate change, and global warming.

Laws and preposals have come from the govt for all of these, att he wishes of the 250 million folks living in the city, buying their food from a store shelf.

Current fears & concerns of the city folk are job security and cheap cheap food.

Smart homesteaders realize they need to monitor these trends from the city folk, and see how that will affect their lifestyles. They will never get city folk to understand homesteading ways, so they have to work to be able to co-exist.

That means getting involved in law-making well before the final hearing on a regulation!

The organic folks did real well with that. There are several levels to be in - true Organic, or just Natural food, and so on. Some gets rather uptight & ridgid, some is relaxed and neigborly. The organic folk 'got' it, and were proactive on the issue when it came up.

Homestead folks - at least the vocal ones on this site - seem to wait until it's way too late, and then complain about missing the boat.

Smart homesteaders would be watching the horizon for the ships to be coming in, not sitting on the dock as the ship disappears in the distance......

Many folks, city or homesteaders, realize the govt takes tax money away from them, and likely always will. As such, they want the govt to spend some of that money back on them. I'd think most tax-paying homesteaders could gain some info and help and all from a good Extension office in their county. Do they _need_ it? No, we don't even _need_ electricity... My neighbot has had the last 4 of her 6 kids at home with a midwife so doesn't _need_ a hospital or doctor - but you know, I think the whole family slept a lot better knowing they were available just should the need arise???? Likewise, a homesteader can get some benifit back from their tax dollars from some of the govt programs that are out there.

Unless you think we all should live in caves, no roads, no hospitals, and not ever share anything at all with each other. Once we live together, help each other, hurt each other, work together.....

We become a society, and end up losing a little, gaining a little, and being a part of a bigger picture.

It feels good to get a little something back for the effort & tax money we put into a society. If that means some regulations to try to make food safer, or to keep your neighbor from dumping toxic waste into the stream flowing through your property, or a govt person sitting in an office with some papers and info to help you learn how to keep bee hives.....

Might not be the worst thing to ever happen.

I'm not sure why you want to make a fedral case over that. Of course, a fedral case would cost tax-payer money.... And we are communication on the internet, supported in part by govt money. On phone lines that were subsidied by govt dollars. With some electricity coming from govt subsidised power plants, on govt subsidised REA power lines...... It is real hard to escape using the govt, or relying upon govt subsidies.....

We are where we are - a society of many different people. It would be nice if city folk were aware of what we need and want, and it is real important for us to be aware of what city folk are demanding.

--->Paul

[Beeman]

Isn't the word homestead based on getting free land from the gov't for living on it?

[Beeman]

Isn't the word homestead based on getting free land from the gov't for living on it?

[Alice In TX/MO]

There were homesteaders (also known as pioneers) before the government land hand outs.

homestead (n.) Look up homestead at Dictionary.com
O.E. hamstede "home, town, village," from home + stead (q.v.). In U.S. usage, "a lot of land adequate for the maintenance of a family" (1693), later defined by the Homestead Act of 1862 as 160 acres. Hence, the verb, first recorded 1872. Homesteader also is from 1872.

[Shrek]

rambler,

I'm ahead on the future no dust ordinances. I started no till bale raised beds years ago

As far as agricultural regulations, I still laugh about the woman in Huntsville I knew in the 1980s who complained that the county ag agent fined her for planting cotton without proper permits and inspection for proper growing of cotton plants along her walkway for decoration as they could potentially infect large cotton fields near her home.

When she complained to me about being fined, I got the encyclopedia volume from her shelf and showed her our states monument to an insect in Enterprise AL and pointed out to her that the boll weevil rated a statue because it opened our state up to growing crops other than "King Cotton" , however at the same time the government also had to start enacting regulations decades before to ensure that a viable cotton crop could be produced resistant to the boll weivel in addition to the peanut crops that came to prominece in parts of the state in the after the boll weevil invasion in the early 1900s.

Agricultural ventures

[oz in SC V2.0]

To the OP, most people are unable to grasp they cannot ask for more 'programs to help people' as well as want less intrusion.

Most people aren't all that bright.

The government is here to serve the people,once it ceases serving and starts ruling,it is probably time for a new government.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Edited:

The government [was] here to serve the people,once it cease[d] serving and start[ed] ruling, it is [now] time for a new government.

[Sherrynboo]

can someone please post a link concerning the future no dust ordinance? This is the first I have heard of such a thing. Thanks!

Sherry in GA

[7thswan]

Well I guess I'm the type of Homesteader that wants as little Goverment in my life as possible. Most of the crap going on today is to limit our ability to be free and take care of our selves. I don't by into all the Fear.

[Truckinguy]

I always get a kick out of these threads about government control and unjust laws. The government is YOU, THE PEOPLE, they are elected by YOU and they are supposed to serve YOU. I realize the 250 million people are a major influence on the government with their massive voting power but they need to be educated.

The reason a lot of these rediculous laws get into being is that private interest groups use a lot of education and influence to get things passed that meet their agenda. They use lobby groups and scare tactics to convince politicians to do what they want. Look at the animal rights groups sad commercials on TV, with sad music and cute puppy dogs looking up at the camera with a forlorn look on their faces, cute kittens reaching out through the bars of a cage as if to say "please adopt me". These are the things that have to be done in order to make changes. You can't sit on your land in the middle of nowhere and expect the government to forget about you and leave you alone. You are still a part of the country and subject to it's laws.

If we want change we have to get involved. If we want LESS government we have to get involved with THIS government to make that happen. Homesteaders need to gather together in groups and associations and get involved in politics on a local, state/province and federal level. We need to be vocal and relentless in our voice and be as informed as possible about coming legislation. It's no use sitting around complaining about things if we're not involved in the process. If someone feels strongly enough about something are they prepared to lose their property, their freedom and even their life for their cause? I think our forefathers would be greatly disappointed in their decendants unwillingness to fight for what they feel is right. Would anyone nowadays be prepared to be the face on the placards of a group of protesters following the martyr for their cause? I don't think so. Another problem is that most homesteaders have their hands full enough just trying to make a living and raise their families to get involved in political activism.

I think the bottom line here is: Are you prepared to write a letter/email EVERY DAY to your political representative stating your position on issues that affect you? Are you prepared to seek out and join a group or groups that represent your interests and be actively involved with them? Are you prepared to meet with your local politician and discuss relevant issues with them? If not, then one can stay on their piece of land in the middle of nowhere with their one little vote and be subject to the laws of the land. We can't just buy a piece of land away from civilization and expect it to be our little kingdom where the only law is our own. Even if we want that to happen, we still have to get involved with the existing government to change things to make that happen, there's no way around it.

Homesteaders and other groups who want change need to use the same tactics and relentless pursuit of their goals of other special interest groups if they want any influence in the control of their lives. If we don't get involved we have no right to complain.

[plowjockey]

Everyone likes government regulation and spending, when they see a benefit and whatever burden the regulation "costs", is placed on someone else.

All business are regulated. Farmers and "homesteaders" are just the last group, to be pulled into the machine.

Let's be honest here.

[Danaus29]

I knew about the California emissions stuff coming up. This is the first I've heard of a no-dust rule.

I guess the govt wants us to starve to death or die from eating contaminated food from other countries. I'd like to know where the govt money suckers think they will get their income from once all the taxpayers have bit the dust.

[plowjockey]

Originally Posted by Danaus29

I knew about the California emissions stuff coming up. This is the first I've heard of a no-dust rule.

I guess the govt wants us to starve to death or die from eating contaminated food from other countries. I'd like to know where the govt money suckers think they will get their income from once all the taxpayers have bit the dust.

Dust control is relatively new to agriculture, but has been around for a while for other industries, like stone quarries, construction demoliton, road construction, etc.

Soemthing else farmers will need to deal with, same as wind drift of sprayed ag chemicals.

[7.62mmFMJ]

So we save the Republic by slowing it demise? Or we join the fray and get our pound of flesh from the taxpayers? I find that morally repugnant.

There is only so much "reality" that I can accept. The fault in the premise is that those bending the Constitution to raid the Treasury have a legitimate right to do so.

I have tried to work within the system and I was appalled at the workings of the voracious beast.

This is not a fight that we were supposed to endure. Our fight was to be limited to local and state issues. Now we have an indomitable enemy in Washington that has been given the power to regulate all aspects of our lives.

I reject the right of the federal government to legislate away my pursuit of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

[Alice In TX/MO]

It's sort of the American Revolution, Part Deux. We just have to putter along till folks get mad enough to throw the tea in the harbor.

[Sonshine]

Government is a neccessary evil in our world, but I don't believe homesteaders need money from them for homesteading. If you are planning on making a proffit by selling what you raise, that may be a different kettle of fish. But I guess it depends on what you consider a homesteader. To me, homesteading means raising what you eat and eating what you raise. It means being self-efficient, not depending on anyone but yourself and your family to survive. Yes, we need government to keep the roads passable and schools going, yet as a homesteader, I homeschool and wouldn't mind not having any public roads to my place.

[bloogrssgrl]

Even the most independent-minded of us benefit from government help one way or another. Oh, we all like to think we can make it on our own, but I don't think there is one person on this board who raises all their own food, grows the fiber and makes their own clothing, cooks their own fuel for transportation, builds their own roads, etc. Unless you can subsist entirely in your own little vacuum, you are surviving on government help.

I think John Donne hit the nail on the head - no man is an island.