Backup Heat Source- 100 pound propane tank?

[Simpler Times]

We heat with wood. That means when we have to leave for over a day we come home to an ice cold house. Electric space heaters aren't an option. We are considering getting a ventless 10,000 btu propane wall heater and attaching it through the wall to a 100 gal propane tank for a cost of less than $200. Harbor Freight has the heaters for around $50 (with coupon) and WalMart.com has the tanks for about $120.00. U-Haul says they will fill the tank for around $60. If my calculations are correct that set up would provide up around 7 days and nights of back up heat. Except in an emergency we would never be gone over a couple of days when we would need to rely on the backup heat. I know it wouldn't heat the entire house but I think it would heat at least one room/possibly two rooms so they would be livable when we returned, the pipes wouldn't freeze, houseplants wouldn't die, etc. Does anyone have any insight on this approach? We have a truck but how difficult would it be to transport the tank etc? Would it have to be transported upright or could it be secured in the truck bed on its side? We are in the backwoods so code etc isn't a concern except I don't want to blow up the house obviously or kill us with a gas leak. If we went the traditional route of buying/renting a large tank the costs would be too much for right now. They won't deliver less than 200 gallons and that would be around $500 for the gas alone. Like I said, this is really just an occasional need so a huge upfront cost isn't justified.

[7.62mmFMJ]

We just installed a 10,000 BTU heater in an insulated 8x8 chicken house. On low it is almost too hot. A 40 pound cylinder (10 gallons) lasted about a week. Of course, it has been real cold with the highs not reaching 32F.

Transporting the cylinder is no big deal. Fill it, tilt it into the truck bed, slide her in. Strap it to keep it from moving around too much.

[Jolly]

My dad heated a 1600 sqft house with a 30,000 BTU. I think a room or two would be no problem.

Might want to get a carbon monoxide alarm, though....

[rambler]

It would help to know where you live, or what you consider 'cold'.

Here we need a furnace of 100,000btu rating, so a 10,000 wall unit would be about like using a candle.... Today it finally got up to a high of 21 degrees - felt nice.

Obviously, you are in a warmer climate.

I suspect it will work for you, however, ventless heaters are against code for use in a dwelling. You have to decide what that means to you - insurance not paying, how fussy your county inspectors get, and so on.

--->Paul

[VERN in IL]

Originally Posted by 7.62mmFMJ

Transporting the cylinder is no big deal. Fill it, tilt it into the truck bed, slide her in. Strap it to keep it from moving around too much.

Can I just throw them in the back of my pickup truck?
You must secure tanks on a flat surface or in racks, and in an upright position in such a way as to minimize movement to each other or the vehicle. Cylinders shall be determined to be leak free before loading into vehicle. NFPA 58 6-2.2.6.

A safety note for you: Propane cylinders of the DoT design must be transported and stored in an upright position so the pressure relief device will function properly. Laying the cylinder on its side in the trunk of your car is a potentially very dangerous situation.

......

[Horse Fork Farm]

Thats the setup we used all last winter here. Our heater was a wall mount with 5 radiants in it. A 100# tank lasted close to 2 weeks of normal use here in WV. We had 2 hundred pound tanks-one in use and the other always full and waiting. We also kept a couple of small tanks full at all times so I could change it myself if my husband was at work when it ran out. Even the small tank ran about 3-4 days. This year the wood stove is back up and running and the propane is for emergencies only! Its really no problem though to use the 100# tanks for the entire winter heating season. Kathy

[mdharris68]

Originally Posted by rambler

however, ventless heaters are against code for use in a dwelling. --->Paul

Can you specify what "code" you are reffering too please?

[ThreeRivers]

We have one of the five brick ones that hang on the wall. We use about two hundred pound tanks a month when its really cold. But most months it will last almost all month. Our heater has the thermostat on it so it will come on and off and not just burn continuously like I have seen some do. We gave something 150 for the heater. We heat about 1300 sq feet with it. We have two other bedrooms we keep closed off and the laundry room as well. I think it would heat those as well will not much more effort though.

Carbon monoxide tester is desired. Also make sure your heater is like mine. It will shut off if oxygen levels drop too low. Its worth the extra money(less than 100 more) for the oxygen shut off and the thermostat control.

[Ross]

Can you specify what "code" you are reffering too please?

No idea what it is for Paul in MN but in Ontario it'd be CSA B140. Can't reference it more as I don't have a copy here.

[Wisconsin Ann]

Originally Posted by mdharris68

Can you specify what "code" you are reffering too please?

I'd assume he's talking about the local building codes, or the gas codes..such as this:
ANSI Z21 11.2 Standard and National Fuel Gas Code revised in 1994 to permit wall mounted installations of vent-free gas heaters of 10,000 Btu or less in bedrooms and 6,000 Btu or less in Bathrooms. As always check local codes..

We put a ventless wall heater in our "cabin" (an 11x24 insulated room in our Pole Barn) and it works exceptionally well. Even in subzero weather, on the lowest setting it will keep the place 50degrees, 20# tank lasts 4 days (ish) depending on the amount of wind we get.

[mdharris68]

I guess my point was not understood. Where I live, there is an electrical code and plumbing code as well as a gas pipe fitters code, but there is no mechanical code. These ventless heaters are kind of in a grey area. It appears that they fall in the Fuel gas code area. To say they are against code is a blanket statement that just isn't true. I think the proper response would be, "check your local codes to see if they are permitted." Wisconsin Ann's reference to the national code shows just the opposite. But my intention is not to drift to a different topic, so I'll clam it up.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Our propane installer said do NOT use ventless for primary heat. NOTHING burns 100% clean, I don't care what the salesman says.

Direct vent is available and easy to install.

It's better than killing yourself with fumes.

[Ken Scharabok]

An aspect to be considered is whether or not your homeowner's insurance would cover a fire if traced back to such a heater. State Farm told me if the fire were traced to a kerocene heater they wouldn't pay anything.

How you handle the bottle may depend on what your refiller is willing to accept. I use a 100 pound tank (which is only about 11 gallons of propane) in the shop to run my forge. When empty I lay it flat in the back of my pickup and tie it off so it doesn't go sliding around. Same for return trip back home.

Locally it cost $85 to have a 100 pound tank refilled. I have a state sales tax exemption since I am using it in a manufacturing process. For someone else cost would be about $94.

I also have oxygen and acetylene bottles refilled. Here the local swap-out place won't load them in the pickup.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by Rose

Our propane installer said do NOT use ventless for primary heat. NOTHING burns 100% clean, I don't care what the salesman says.

Direct vent is available and easy to install.

It's better than killing yourself with fumes.

I used to be a firefighter, and I was taught something similar. However, I'm also a chemical engineer (by both degree and trade). Therefore, when considering a furnace for my cabin I decided to look at the facts.

The fact is that propane burns very clean. While there is some carbon monoxide found in propane combustion gasses, it's not enough to create dangerous levels for humans. When a CO alarm is also used, you can be sure that the CO level is safe.

However, with an unvented furnace you need to follow a few rules.

• Allow at least 50 cubic feet of volume for each 1,000 btu/hour of furnace heating capacity.
• Do not place the furnace in a space that can be isolated with a door, such as a bedroom or bathroom, unless that room has the minimum 50 cubic feet for each 1,000 btu/hour of furnace heating capacity.
• Be sure that your furnace is equipped with an Oxygen Depletion Sensor (ODS) that will shut-off the furnace if the oxygen level in the room drops below 18%.
• Use a CO alarm.

Really, if you think about it you'll realize that a propane range is unvented and puts out about as much heat as a wall furnace when the oven & burners are in use cooking a large meal. Certainly, no one is afraid to use a range that's putting out the same combustion gasses that a wall furnace would.

I use an unvented 20,000 btu/hour wall heater to heat my cabin. The CO alarm has never sounded, and I've found the unvented wall heater to be entirely satisfactory for primary use. I certainly would have no problem recommending one for back-up use.

I'm not surprised that your propane installer told you that, but I suspect that he has had limited training in this area and has not researched the facts independently. He was probably repeating information that had heard, which probably had the confidence level of rumors, superstition, and wives tales.

The more you learn about it the better you'll feel about it.

[Marie04]

That's a good point about propane gas ranges. We had one of those when we first got married 37 years ago, and it was just a little apartment size stove. We kept two tanks outside, one in use and one as a spare. Many years later we bought a rental house, and one of them had one of these heaters as a backup in a porch area. My husband removed it from that house when he remodeled, but we have it in another unit as a backup. My husband is no expert except having done most things himself all his life, and he thinks they are very nice, clean, and do the job well. Better to have some kind of backup than all the losses of no heat. Getting a detector would be a good idea too. Both the heater and the detector would mean peace of mind, in my opinion, from what I've observed.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by Simpler Times

Harbor Freight has the heaters for around $50 (with coupon) and WalMart.com has the tanks for about $120.00. U-Haul says they will fill the tank for around $60.

Yes, I'm paying about $60 to fill a 100# tank. I was paying closer to $80, but propane has come down. A 100# tank will hold about 23 gallons. I can handle it just fine when it's empty, but the guy who fills it helps me slide it up into my SUV. I can side it out by myself when it's full without a problem.

I got a 100# tank last year at Home Depot for $89, but this year they are $129. I think that's outrageous, but hopefully tank prices will come back down again soon.

My cabin is small, about 400 sq ft, but a 100# tank lasts me about two weeks. I can't imagine your burning a 100# tank in a week, particularly when using a wood stove along with it.

I don't know what kind of heater you can get for $50. A satisfactory heater with a thermostat will typically cost about $100 to $150 (delivered). They are available in 10K, 20K, and 30K btu/hour models, all at about the same price. Here's an example, although it's overpriced.

http://cgi.ebay.com/20-000-BTU-Propa...mZ220320961373

I think you'll find the thermostatically controlled ventless propane furnace to be a nice addition to your home. In the event of your wood stove fire getting low at night, the thermostat will come on and keep your home comfortable.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by Marie04

We kept two tanks outside, one in use and one as a spare.

Oh yes, I almost forgot. If you have a lot of pilots in your house like I do you'll want to switch to your backup propane tank automatically. You can do that with an RV regulator. You can get those at any local RV supply store for around $45 (plus hoses, which are $10 to $15 each). It will look like this one.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Marsh...Q5fAccessories

Note that it has a colored indicator on the right side. It's red now, but at that angle you can see a little green. Here's how it works.

If you start with two full tanks it doesn't matter which way the handle is turned. Let's say we start with two full tanks and the handle turned towards the left tank, as in the photo. The indicator will be green, indicating that the left tank is full, and the regulator will draw from the left tank. When the left tank goes empty the regulator will 1) automatically start drawing from the right tank, and 2) the indicator will pop to 1/2 red & 1/2 green, indicating that the tank that the handle is pointing towards is empty but the other tank has gas. When that happens you turn the handle to the right (indicator will pop to green) and remove the left tank to refill it. After replacing the left tank with a full one, the left tank will become the backup, and the process repeats in reverse.

That way the pilots always stay lit.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Who has an unvented gas or propane range??? Ours most certainly are vented. Range hoods... way cool invention.

I understand all the safety precautions, and if that's the way you want to go, good on you.

The instructions also tell you about having adequate air exchange, etc., which means that it is using the oxygen in your room/house.

I just won't do it for me or my family or the folks in my rental properties. It's so much easier and safer to err on the side of caution.

It's amusing that people get killed on a regular basis by generators when the power is out, but other blithely put unvented propane in their homes.

[7.62mmFMJ]

I paid $200 for the 10,000 BTU heaters I installed. They come equipped with the ODS (oxygen depletion sensor). And let me tell you, it was a bear getting it to stay lit. Luckily the dog house and chicken house are kinda experimental. You need 10 sq inch to fresh air near the burner. I used a 1 1/2 bit to poke some holes in the wall. I put PVC pipe in the hole to keep the insulation from blocking the inlet. Of course, you may not want to do this in your house!

Yes, as Ken said, lay the cylinder flat in your truck. I had to laugh by you quoting the NFPA for "proper transport." I deal with that crap everyday and it gets tiresome. Now, if you are a trucker or local hauler, then the cylinders must be handled as such. But Mr. Consumer can just throw it in the back and be done with it.

[Marie04]

I wonder if RVs normally have these regulators on the propane tanks.. Someone told us to keep one tank off because if they switch over automatically you might run out, not knowing that the tanks switched.. I'll have to ask hubby about this option, or if the regulator has the colored indicators...