Enlighten me...which is more efficient?

cc-rider · #1 12/13/08, 05:53 PM

I have a VERY drafty house. Hope to move soon, so not worth insulating any more. Anyway....

I have a furnace in the basement that I haven't turned on in probably 3 years. It isn't newer, so guessing MAYBE 80% efficient at the most. It runs through ducts to the first floor and heats my living room, kitchen, computer room (half-***d, but I never use this room anyway), and bathroom. It doesn't heat the upstairs at all because at some point, the ducts must have been cut or closed when the house was remodeled.

I installed a corn stove in the living room...but corn is too expensive to buy now, too.

I also have a ventless gas fireplace in the living room. I've been using this for the last 2 or 3 years exclusively. It keeps the living room nice, the kitchen so-so....but very tolerable, especially when I use the gas stove to cook, and I keep the computer room and bathroom doors shut, so it doesn't heat those. It would, if I open the doors. If I open the upstairs doors, it heats them VERY toasty, because all the heat goes right up the stairs, but then the living room gets chilly. I usually heat them briefly before I go to bed, but then shut the doors again so my bedroom stays cool, and the living room stays warm.

My gas bill is tolerable using the ventless fireplace.

My SO questioned me today about why I do that instead of just running the furnace. I said the fireplace is 100% efficient. Every bit of heat goes into the room. The furnace, if it is 80%, is still losing heat to the ducts, under the floor, and in the basement. True, it heats more evenly and I don't have cold spots in the house, but it takes SO much more gas to do it! He said that an 80% efficient furnace doesn't mean that I only get 80% of the heat out of it.

Ok, so what DOES it mean? And which is better to use for economy???

gone-a-milkin · #2 12/13/08, 08:38 PM

I am thinking that the person who pays the gas bill, you, would be the best person to say.

To me most efficient=most affordable.

If your house is drafty then none of your heating options will work to their Best ability.

Sorry I am no help at all...

PlowGirl · #3 12/13/08, 08:39 PM

The heat source that best heats the space you want heated, for the least amount of money is your best bet.

Alice In TX/MO · #4 12/13/08, 09:32 PM

My propane man said that a ventless propane heater should absolutely not be used as your primary heat source. If you are in a drafty old house, you are probably ok, but primary heat is not what they are designed for.

cc-rider · #5 12/13/08, 09:38 PM

Mine is natural gas, so probably a bit safer. I don't really see a problem with it, other than I do notice that it amplifies odors. Whatever odors are in the house....cooking, vacuuming, painting, etc., seem to be stronger. I've used it for 3 years now, and I DO keep a carbon monoxide monitor in the room, and I've never had a bit of problem.

MELOC · #6 12/13/08, 10:11 PM

i think the efficiency of 80% means what you think it does. as to the whole enchilada, you have a lot of variables. is it worth heating the whole house? if you were to heat the whole house, you may have less trouble in a few days when everything heats up. trying to heat everything, every item in your home, everytime you need heat isn't very practical...but i know exactly how it is because that is the boat i am in right now. my house is super-drafty. i have a broken furnace (wood/oil boiler and cast iron radiators) down due to a bad chimney. every room with a cold radiator never stays warm as the radiator is always chilly. unfortunately, things cool off a whole bunch every night when i shut down the drafts on the woodstoves and i need to reheat everything the next day. it takes about 2 hours of close attention to the fires to get things nice again.

i guess only you know how drafty your house is and if it would be worth running the furnace with 20% less efficiency, but with the gain of not having to reheat any cold areas. perhaps a solution would be to open and close vents in rooms you don't need heated while you sleep. i guess the bill tells all and you know better than anyone.

one thing i have done is to use an electric radiant heater in my bedroom. i just leave that one on and keep my bedroom door closed. right now electricity is less than 5 cents per kwh, so the only cheaper heat for me is firewood. i use firewood, but i have to shut things down at night to hold the fire, and i have no fire in my bedroom (lol), so i need to use an electric heater there.

maybe you could use the calculator at www.builditsolar.com and weigh your heating options. i also have a kerosene heater for really cold weather so i checked the comparitive price of different fuels and efficiencies. the cost for electric heat per 100,000 btu was @ $1.56. kerosene was @ $2.26 (i think). i considered getting a propane ventless, but the cost per 100,000 locally was $4.04...wow! i just couldn't do it.

Alice In TX/MO · #7 12/14/08, 01:14 AM

Info about dangers of vent free heaters:

http://www.homeenergy.org/archive/he...96/960905.html

http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hovflett.htm

http://www.epinions.com/content_5004370052

**Ross** · #8 12/14/08, 03:55 AM

80% efficient means the amount of heat you're getting out of the fuel. An analyser measures the co2 and heat differentials (flue gas to room temp) and already has the btu of #2 oil factored in. It could be running 5% better or substantially worse than 80%. Just how much air it can heat through your duct design (return vs supply) and how well your chimney is working (many are too big) makes a big difference. Often trying to "zone"heat a forced air furnace drops efficiency notablely. You close off a room and the heat simply goes up the chimney|!! Certainly if you close off cold air returns you're making yourself problems as the furnace has less air to heat. It still burns the same amount of oil it just can't transfer it to the air.. so out the chimney it goes! Rose is correct about ventless gas heaters btw, not to be used as primary heat. I'm glad you have a CO detector, go buy another one.

sheepish · #9 12/14/08, 07:11 AM

and use some of your heating money to seal drafts. Caulking doesn't cost much. Start in the rooms you use most.

rambler · #10 12/14/08, 06:50 PM

Revisit the price of corn - it has dropped 50% in the last couple of months. Corn stove is the cheapest fuel where _I_ live, but corn is pretty cheap here.

You didn't say where you live, it is minus 9 outside right now here so I doubt you are in a cold climate - a heater or stove in one room, or a furnace with 1/2 the ductwork closed off is just not even remotely possible 'here'.

If you continue to use the ventless heater, do _not_ seal up that room with insulation or sealers. That would be a real dangerous move. Those vent free heaters are 100% because they are putting their exhaust into the room air you are breathing. There is always some small bad stuff in there - not enough to kill you but enough to sometimes give headaches, or build up in a person over time. What is keeping you alive & healthy & unconcerned over these issues is the drafty nature of your house - the air is changing over in your house enough to keep the bad stuff pretty low. It is something to be concerned about.

For me it would be a no-brainer - $3 corn is the cheapest fuel these days other than making your own wood for a wood furnace - which brings up labor vs dollars which is different for everybody.

Sounds like the corn stove may be the safest one as well, if your furnace/ ductwork has not been looked after in so long as to not be sure how it is ducted or working at this time.

You asked about most efficient, but I think you wanted to know what is the cheapest option? Here it would be the corn stove. Ventless might be most efficient, but is not the safest and would cost more 'here'. Your furnace has a lot of questions - 'here' you would need to use the furnace with working ductwork, and could use the cornstove to help heat a few rooms and let the rest of the house scrape by wil colder temps.

--->Paul

cc-rider · #11 12/15/08, 06:42 AM

I'm in Ohio. Definitely not MN, but cold usually. I never said my one-stove set up kept the house warm....just tolerable.

You are probably right about the drafts, though. My front door opens right into the living room, and between people coming and going, and letting the dog in and out....there's WAY too much "fresh" air in the room.

Corn was $3.29 last week according to the market, but to buy it in bags .... even through the elevator ... is $4.50 a bag. At this point, I can't find a way to store enough to purchase it directly from a farmer. I'm trying to find a gravity wagon to store it in, but right now I live in town and that'd probably look pretty funny. (Not that I care!)

cfabe · #12 12/15/08, 07:37 AM

You are right that an 80% furnace wastes 20% of the heat up the chimney. And also correct that you will lose additional heat to duct losses if they run through an uninsulated basement.

The ventless heaters are 100% so you will save money by using that for heat. Others have mentioned the dangers of using it, regarding it exhausting into the house. Personally I lived in a house with one for a while, and I found that it smelled like exhaust in the house after using it for 30 min or so, I don't know how anyone could tolerate that. Maybe mine was just a bad unit.

The other thing to be aware of is that a ventless heater introduces a LOT of moisture into the house. If you have problems with condensation/fogging on windows, that is due to you running the ventless heater so much. This can lead to mold and wood rot issues from the condensation.

So in short, you will save money, but there are a number of reasons why it's not a good idea, both for your health and for the health of the house. If your house is really that drafty you may be able to get away with it, but you could also end up a statistic one cold night.

cc-rider · #13 12/15/08, 09:32 AM

I'm guessing I'm OK since my house is DEFINITELY not humid. No condensation/fogging. Also, no odors unless I'm cooking. It has an oxygen sensor, plus I double-checked my carbon-monoxide monitor last night and it's fine. If it gets me through this winter, that will be the last that I'll be using it anyway. Thanks for all the concern, however.

stanb999 · #14 12/15/08, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rambler

Revisit the price of corn - it has dropped 50% in the last couple of months. Corn stove is the cheapest fuel where _I_ live, but corn is pretty cheap here.

You didn't say where you live, it is minus 9 outside right now here so I doubt you are in a cold climate - a heater or stove in one room, or a furnace with 1/2 the ductwork closed off is just not even remotely possible 'here'.

If you continue to use the ventless heater, do _not_ seal up that room with insulation or sealers. That would be a real dangerous move. Those vent free heaters are 100% because they are putting their exhaust into the room air you are breathing. There is always some small bad stuff in there - not enough to kill you but enough to sometimes give headaches, or build up in a person over time. What is keeping you alive & healthy & unconcerned over these issues is the drafty nature of your house - the air is changing over in your house enough to keep the bad stuff pretty low. It is something to be concerned about.

For me it would be a no-brainer - $3 corn is the cheapest fuel these days other than making your own wood for a wood furnace - which brings up labor vs dollars which is different for everybody.

Sounds like the corn stove may be the safest one as well, if your furnace/ ductwork has not been looked after in so long as to not be sure how it is ducted or working at this time.

You asked about most efficient, but I think you wanted to know what is the cheapest option? Here it would be the corn stove. Ventless might be most efficient, but is not the safest and would cost more 'here'. Your furnace has a lot of questions - 'here' you would need to use the furnace with working ductwork, and could use the cornstove to help heat a few rooms and let the rest of the house scrape by wil colder temps.

--->Paul

Corn...... Is only cheap in the corn belt.

Want cheap heat? Think Coal. For an easy comparison...

Corn @ 3.00 per 62 pounds or $96 a ton
1 ton of corn in Btu's = 14,000,000
cost is 68cents per 100,000 Btu's

Coal @ 120 a Ton
27,000,000 Btu's per ton
Cost is 44cents per 100,000 Btu's
These #'s are using 13,500Btu coal. You can easily get higher btu coal for a similar price if you look.

MELOC · #15 12/15/08, 11:07 AM

how much are you paying for gas?

cc-rider · #16 12/15/08, 11:24 AM

I'll have to check out my gas price.... I know last month's bill was just under $100...and it wasn't even cold yet!

Corn is only cheap in the corn belt....if you grow it yourself! Try buying it from the elevator. I guess they need to make a profit, too, though. I need to find a local farmer.....