growing apples from seeds vs. cloning

[Paul Wheaton]

I have recently learned that if you grow an apple tree from the seed (as opposed to transplanting) it will have a tap root, and all of the bennies that come from having a tap root (more drought resistance, more access to minerals ... just an overall healthier, stronger tree).

Neat!

Add to that something I learned a few years ago: when planting apple trees from seeds, only one apple in 20,000 is market viable. Meaning so good that it can compete with varieties like mcintosh or granny smith.

I wonder what the odds are that I'll end up with some sort of crab apple?

I suppose most full size apples will end up as massive trees?

I suppose if the fruit ends up pretty lame, you could come back and graft something else on - a sure fire winner. Or ... does that awesome apple twig get to be awesome because of the root stock?

Will a certain root stock on a crab able twig make a full size apple?

Are there some apple varieties that are better than others for using the seeds?

[Freeholder]

All I know is that if seedling apples aren't very good to eat, sometimes they are still useful for cider (usually blended) or for cooking. Though we've tasted quite a few seedling apples that were actually pretty good, and could maybe have been improved with some care of the trees. This is from trees growing in fence rows and alongside of roads, planted by birds or by people tossing apple cores out of their cars!

And if the apples aren't edible at all, you should be able to top-work (graft) a good variety onto them -- the rootstock won't affect the quality of the fruit from the grafted portion.

Kathleen

[Terri]

I bought seedling root stock, intending to graft onto it..Every graft failed. It did not matter that asked successfull grafters to help, the extension service advice, and looked it up in books. The grafts all failed!

I now have 10 bearing seedling trees. One is very like a golden delicous, 2 are excellent dwarf crabs with 2" wide apples, one is decent, and the others are really too bland.

It is actually fun!

[shawnee]

We bought an apple/peach/etc. orchard 4 years ago. I wouldn't have the patience you folks have to start a tree from seeds!

We planted purchased stock from C & O Nursery the same year and harvested our first Zestar and Granny Smith, Fuji and Gravenstein's this year. Not many because of the horrid hail storms we had to endure this spring, but enough to sell a few and give folks a taste of next year - hopefully.

With the many varieties of apples, all pretty much grafted, I'd think a tree started from a seedling would be pretty useless, actually. The guy that sold us this place has tried grafting with very mixed results. Couple of those trees are growing in the rows with the good apple trees; their apples suck. Husband is cutting them out this year and preparing their spot to put some other apple trees in .

[Terri]

When I say that 3 of my trees are good, I don't mean that they are BETTER than commercial. I would say that the three trees are as good as varieties already avalilable, but not better.

The one tree is only as tasty as a golden delicous, though it has a pretty orange blush. The 2 crabs are delicious but not heavy croppers.

Fun, though.

[sorcerer]

Would it be safe to assume that a tree grown from the seed of an apple that was from a tree grown from seed would be of similar quailty to the parent tree? I saved some seeds this year from some apples that came from a tree that was planted (from a seed) by my great grandfather about 30-40 years ago. That tree has always had such wonderful apples. Or is there still a chance that the tree would produce inferior fruit?

[Paul Wheaton]

Kathleen,

Do you suppose some rootstocks are significantly better than others?

Terri,

That is some excellent info! Thanks!

Are you familiar with those grafting tools like the omega?

"sorcerer",

My impression is that 99.99% of the fruit from a seed tree will be of lower quality than the parent. Probably most would be nothing like the parent.

If you want a tree just like another, the sure bet is to cut a twig off that is less than a year old and graft it on. But, as you may have read above, grafting is tough to get right.

[ET1 SS]

Every time that the genes mix, you get something new [with apples, potatoes and broccoli].

The only sure way to get something edible is to clone.

In this area the forests all have wild apple trees in them. You can taste hundreds before finding one that is edible.

The two previous posted guesses sound about right: "only one apple in 20,000 is market viable" and "99.99% of the fruit from a seed tree will be of lower quality than the parent".

[NickieL]

Can't hurt to try!! There is a wild apple in the woods next door that's my secret, OMG the apples are ugly as sin but the flavor is to die for!In fact its as good or better then the apples I've ever tasted at the store. The problem is that I can't ever reach most of them LOL! I want to graft a piece to a dwarf rootstock but i'm not sure where to get a rootstock.

[ET1 SS]

Why dwarf?

[NickieL]

Because I don't have a farm and want to squeeze in as many fruit trees onto my lot as possible. I can plant 6 trees in the space a non dwarf would take up.

[billooo2]

Several years ago I read of someone who had an apple orchard, and also sold apple trees. He would make apple cider and then he would spread the leftover pulp (with the seeds) over some plowed ground. Many of the seeds would start growing, and he would use those as the rootstock to put grafts on.

BTW, if I understand it correctly, cloning and grafting are 2 very different techniques.

[haypoint]

Some of the tap root is cut when trees are removed from their planting bed. Once it is planted, it takes off and the tap root continues to grow. I think that if you put an apple seed in the ground next to a seedling with a pruned tap root, after a year, the seedling would have a longer tap root than your from seed tree.
I wish I had an Omega grafting tool. They do a sweet job. Last year, I potted 1000 apple tree seedlings and did grafts on 800. I had a good sucess rate, about 85%. I did several kinds of grafts. I did some bud grafts, late in the spring and they did well.
You can buy dwarfing rootstock or standard size rootstock that are better than what you can grow from seed. If you want to grow apples from seed, throw an apple core out the window. anything more is a waste of time.
My focus is old, unknown varieties from old homesteads. For every 50 trees I check, only one is worth grafting.
NickieL, one day that tree will be gone. Either dead or cut down. It is important to preserve those old unknown varieties. You could start a dozen trees with that variety grafted onto it.
http://www.extension.umn.edu/distrib...s/DG0532c.html

[Paquebot]

Every apple seed is the result of two different varieties. Without having another blooming at the same in that area, there won't be any apples. Thus each seed has two parents. And since the pollen is so light that it may be blown in from miles away, one can never be certain where it comes from in any given year. One can only be certain that is it not coming from a tree of the same variety.

Also, any graft will only produce the fruit that it is genetically programmed to do no matter what root stock it is grafted to.

Martin

[NickieL]

Of course, you'll never grow that special new variety if you never plant the seed Sometimes folks win the lotto.

I'm hoping to graft in the spring (I've never done it before!) I bought a propogation book that shows the techniques step by step. The apple itself is a burnished green with a tint of red.

[Chixarecute]

we thought we wanted dwarf, went with standard, as the nursery owner said "the dwarf trees will never outgrow the deer!"

[haypoint]

I tended a group of semi-dwarf apple trees for nearly 20 years and never had a blossom. One by one they died. I planted standard size apple trees and had apples in 2 or 3 years. It is just too cold up here for dwarf trees.
The rootstock does effect the size of the apples. I wish it weren't so, but dwarf trees produce more large apples than standard.
NickieL: You'll need to collect your scions in February and keep them from drying out and in the refrigerator. February is a good time to prune. If you cut a tree back quite aways, the next summer it will put out a lot of new growth. This will give you lots of scions for next year.

[NickieL]

Febuary? awesome. I gps'd the spot so I can't lose it LOL I jsut hope the bevers don't knaw it down. Thought about putting wire around the trunk.

[sorcerer]

hmmm . . . I fogot about the fact that the apples I picked from Grandma's trees would have been pollinated by the Macintosh that is planted right next too it!

So, if I want to have a tree like hers I guess I start practicing grafting. I saw a guy at an auction years ago who had potted up a bunch of the suckers from his cherry tree and tried to sell them as one year old cherry tree's (don't think he got many buyers!) I know that wouldn't work but could you grow some suckers from an established apple tree and use them as root stock for your grafts? The suckers come from the original root stock anyway right?

I really want my grandma's tree and I have a yummy old, old Macintosh tree in my yard now that I would love to clone (what is the difference between cloning and grafting?) Both these tree are on their last legs and who knows how many more years of apple sauce I'll get from them.

[Terri]

I e-mailed the extension service about my tasty crabs.

She suggested that I root some cuttings, using rooting hormone.

I tried it, but it did not work. I think that I will try again, earlier in the spring.