part time farming

62flint · #1 10/01/08, 08:44 PM

I have been dreaming of getting a few cows ,chickens and some other livestock for a while now. I am just to tired of working 8-5 and really not enjoying it. The only reason I continue to do it is I make decent money.
My family has 250-300 acres tillable land. It is being rented out to a commercial farmer. He grows corn, soybeans and small grain on it.
I was thinking of putting 12 acres in grass for cattle and growing from their,least I hope I will grow.
I would really like to be able to farm the whole 250 acres again. I would also like to do it organic or as close to it as I could.
Any one have any advise on how to go about this. All the local people just keep telling me you can't make any money farming any more unless you farm 500+ acres. I just refuse to believe this. Maybe I am just hard headed.
My wife is scared of going broke or over extending ourselves.
I remember the times when I was younger. Growing cows, chickens, rabbits, hogs,etc. May not have had a lot of money, but it was fun.
I really enjoy this board While I may not post much I do look at it quite a bit.
Thanks

.netDude · #2 10/01/08, 09:05 PM

Not sure where you're from, could have an impact on the responses you get. First, make sure your family is on board with the decision. Without their support it makes it very difficult. Don't plan on quitting that 8-5 right away - I think that would be a big mistake unless you've got a big bankroll put away... you'll need a bunch of capital to support the farm while you're supporting you and the family. Enough capital is the most important thing. 'you can't make any money unless you're farming more than 500+ acres' may be true in grain farming, but I haven't done that and never will. Now, a few beeves and chickens sold retail can supplement the income and is absolutely do-able. Depends what your goals are - set them and make them realistic. Without knowing anything about your background except the assumptions I can make from your post, read all you can. Stockman Grass farmer site has some really good articles and books, as does grazeonline.com, acresusa.com, attra.org. Check out a book by Greg Judy, but you'll need to vet his ideas against what you have to work with.
Costs some money, but here's an upcoming seminar in PA that deals with small farming with Joel Salatin and Allan Nation:
http://www.stockmangrassfarmer.net/c...age.cgi?id=721
Hope it helps and good luck.

wwubben · #3 10/01/08, 09:28 PM

I would write up a business plan before doing anything else.You will need to list the cost of start up machinery,the cost of cash rent,the cost of growing the crop and harvesting it.and the expected return.Do not over estimate your return.Check with someone who knows farming to see if your plan is feasable and go from there.You will need a plan to satisfy your banker.

travlnusa · #4 10/01/08, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwubben

I would write up a business plan before doing anything else.You will need to list the cost of start up machinery,the cost of cash rent,the cost of growing the crop and harvesting it.and the expected return.Do not over estimate your return.Check with someone who knows farming to see if your plan is feasable and go from there.You will need a plan to satisfy your banker.

Follow this advice!!!!!!!

If you want to start, set up 10-20 acres of pasture, and 20 acres of grass hay fields. Start with some beef cows, and grow from there.

Throw in a handful of chickens.

This will give you a good idea of your dreams meet up with reality.

agmantoo · #5 10/01/08, 10:11 PM

Flint,
I do not live that far from you. You are welcome to come on down to my farm and I will show you what I do on much less land than most people would think that would work. Have you ever read the statement that goes something like this "most people had rather fail conventionally than succeed unconventionally". If the economy continues its downward spiral we are going to see more people taking the unconventional route if they are going to survive in the agriculture sector.

Quint · #6 10/02/08, 02:27 AM

Go for it.

I'd caution though that there is no such thing as a part time farmer. Your crops and livestock won't listen to you if you tell them you just want to do it part time. Believe me, I've tried explaining that sort of thing to a chicken or a hog but they don't seem to grasp the concept

MorrisonCorner · #7 10/02/08, 06:31 AM

*laugh* Quint, you hit the nail on that one. Someone tell my sheep they are supposed to be "part time," please!

You need a business plan. Why do you need a business plan? Because if you don't have one you will flail... and flailing leads to failing. The other reason for a business plan is it forces you to look realistically at the market forces you will be confronting.

But there is something I think more important at play in putting a business plan down on paper... it forces you to recognize that "farming" is one thing. The actual managing of the business end of farming absorbs, in my case, comfortably twice the amount of time "farming" takes. The paperwork involved in running a successful sheep farm is staggering. The time spent on a computer managing a website to sell animals, the time spent selling wool, going to trade shows, dealing with forms (animals can't cross state lines right now without documents)... dwarfs, simply dwarfs, the amount of time I spend on any given day heaving hay at sheep.

If you think farming is all about "grow chicken, collect eggs" you've missed a key element which is "now what?" Eggs don't sell themselves. Eggs don't wander out the door and come back in the form of dollar bills. And if you don't have a plan for getting rid of eggs, wool, beef, whatever it tends to pile up on you. And while you can feed eggs to your dog, throw wool into the wool pool, and sell your beef cheaply, those won't cover your costs. And not covering costs is not a business plan.

62flint · #8 10/02/08, 08:57 AM

I guess what I should be asking is, how do I write a buisness plan for a small farm. I know how to raise livestock,I just am not sure what my goals and expectations should be. Growing up on the farm I was more labor help than in the management side of it.
I am starting from scratch. I have land available to use at very low to no cost. But I need grass,fence,hay storage,tractor and other equipment etc.
I just want to start with about 3-6 cows,then maybe some hogs maybe expand the few chicken my daughter has now.
It is kinda overwelming at times when I try to put it all together in my head.
Things are just so expensive today. I don't think people can afford many mistakes. Lest I can't.

MorrisonCorner · #9 10/02/08, 09:49 AM

Ok, so it sounds like you start with an outline format:

Farm
Cows
Cost of creating hayfield
Cost of fencing
Cost of hay
Cost of original animals

Potential Returns on Animals

etc. One of the reasons this is "overwhelming" is that you correctly intuit that this is going to be "seriously unprofitable" and your brain runs down rabbit holes trying to figure out how you might make it "profitable." Or at the very least not "lose your shirt."

You've got two avenues of approach (maybe more, but I see two right now): start as a hobby, with a set budget on exactly what you'll spend monthly on getting your hobby off the ground, recognizing that basically this is a hobby and you'll not invest one dime more than you can afford to on your hobby or...

Treat it like a business and go fangs for glory into a concrete and active business plan, marketing the daylights out of your farm product, joining local business organizations, becoming a one man marketing machine for your farm.

What you do will depend largely on your comfort with risk and your passion for sales... along with the financial and time resources available to you.

If you decide to treat this for your own mental purposes as a "hobby" remember that "hobby" can have "business" attached at the end of it for tax purposes, and keep good, solid, records. If you decide in 3 years to become a "business" then you'll want those records so you can write off your initial investment in infrastructure and stock against any income you're earning. Records are also important because if you are married, and your partner gets uncomfortable with your hobby, you can look at the numbers dispassionately. I know exactly what my farm costs on a monthly basis, exactly what is invested in keeping things going... if it starts doing a mission creep above the amount we can afford I need to know that and make adjustments long before we're in over our heads. Because as you say, one can't afford too many expensive mistakes.

However, when calculating out the benefits of your farm be sure to put a value on intangibles which might not be included in the normal business plan. For example, I place a dollar value on sheep waste... another word for this is "compost" or "soil improvement." I pay $4.50/bale and add another .50 to that for our overhead costs of hauling hay.. so $5/bale. A truck load of hay = $250. I will use about $1125 worth of hay over a winter. Out of that I'll gain about 8 lambs, but lets set the value of the lambs aside.

I'll gain, when it is fully composted, about 4 yards (2 truck loads) of compost. Incredibly badly done, poor quality, compost in my area costs $75/yard.. and I have to truck it to my property. So just by eating and excreting waste, my sheep have made me $300 on that $1125.. bringing the cost of my hay to $825.

825/8 new lambs mean the lambs cost me $103 each to produce (plus some other expenses, but you get the idea). The lambs throw a lovely fleece each, which the market places a value on of.. let's say for argument sake $10.. now my lambs cost $93 each.

These figures are just for the purposes of this illustration, and don't reflect actual costs, so please people, don't start jumping up and down point out flaws... the issue here is to value ALL of the benefits you get from your animals, not just the ones the IRS says count.

So my sheep have also done brush cutting for me... saving me the cost of hiring someone to do that. That has value. They've reinvigorated my fields. Again, that has value. They've eaten the blueberry bushes... that is a cost!

It sounds childish, but with new farmers I often suggest they sit down with a big old piece of white paper and some magazines. Cut out pictures and make a collage of what you'd like your farm to be. Do you see your kids working it? Yourself up on a tractor? Visitors at a farm stand? Sheep on a hillside and a cow in the barn? Put it all up there and then look at what you've created.

Now make an outline of that creation. It may be you've got more hobby than business.. that's fine. figure out what you can afford to spend on your hobby, then start hobbying your little heart out. It may be it looks more like a business.. again, figure your investment, your return, your ability to produce labor... but in the case of a business, do not pour your heart and soul into a business that doesn't work on paper. That "business" is called a "hobby."

RosewoodfarmVA · #10 10/02/08, 10:06 AM

We're in southside VA, not far from you, and for about 8 years now we've made about 1/2 of our income on about 50 acres of cleared land (all grazing/hay)! The other 1/2 comes from odd jobs we pick up throughout the year (no "regular job"). Boy, I'd love to be in your shoes! 300 acres could support a couple of families if managed properly! Specially if it's family land and already paid for! Go for it. Save enough money to live a year or two without income, then start farming!

As mentioned before, there is no way to plan farming around other jobs or comittments, farming must be FIRST in your list of priorities. Hay cannot sit on the ground and get rained on because you had to "go to work." Farm first, then if absolutely necessary, pick up side jobs to make extra income when they fit around the farm work. Also remember, if you choose to farm, it's a lifestyle, not a job, and will require changes, sometimes big changes, to your lifestyle and entertainment and how you spend your money. Farming isn't a living if you want $80k a year! But if you can make it on $40k or $50k it's no reason why you can't do that with that much land!

Land is the greatest roadblock to young aspiring farmers like me (I'm just 25). We have to work 20 years at outside employment before we can afford to buy land, then by that time, we've lost the youthful energy to do the work! You'll never get younger, go for it now.

RosewoodfarmVA · #11 10/02/08, 10:12 AM

PS don't get new equipment.... We paid less than $15,000 for all our equipment (tractor, plow, disk, all hay equipment, bushhog, post hole digger, etc), its all used, mostly 30 years or older, but still in good condition and maintained regularly. Used equipment is often less than 25% of new prices, and can still do the job.

Buying new equipment is like trading trucks every 3 years for that shiny new one...it's a waste of money!!

**highlands** · #12 10/02/08, 10:34 AM

If you're leasing out to a commercial farmer and getting a decent rent I would suggest not competing with him on what he does well. Instead take a couple of acres and focus on a few specialty crops and livestock. Learn how to grow them well and market them well. If you get good at it, expand. It will take time to learn the ins and outs of how to grow things, how to market them, what is in demand, etc. Start slowly and feel your way into it without making a huge upfront investment or disrupting the existing farming which is already providing cash flow. Five or ten acres out of that 300 acres is more than enough for you to get started. Later if you're super successful you can figure out if it is worth taking on the other acreage.

As to the "get big or get out" it's a myth. We farm full time and make a decent living at it. We happen to own over 1,000 acres which we primarily do sustainable forestry on - e.g., logging. These last few years the housing market has been down so we've cut little wood - it just keeps growing. Instead our income has come almost exclusively from the farm. We have a small patch of about 20 acres around our house where we do all our farming. We started out using just two acres of that over a decade ago. Over the years we've gradually expanded as we had the need for more fields. Our primary farm product is pastured pork - we also raise sheep, chickens, ducks, geese and have extensive gardens which feed us and the animals. It doesn't take all that much land to make a full time living at farming.

Don't bite off more than you can chew. Go slowly. There is a great deal to learn and it will take years.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

-TWO- · #13 10/02/08, 11:41 AM

I been "part time farming" for years. I call it my "day job" as I work swing shift at a Saw Mill. Some of the guys at work that farm on a much larger scale then me call the mill their part time job. But really, first & foremost. You have to truly love farming. Its got to be your passion. Or it will become drudgery & you'll get discouraged & you'll grow to hate it.

JW Parker · #14 10/02/08, 08:37 PM

When I do get a little place, I plan on making enough money from it to pay the taxes and whatever insurance I need for the place besides raising all the meat and vegetables I can eat.

MariaAZ · #15 10/02/08, 09:24 PM

MorrisonCorner, that had to be one of the finest pieces I've read on the basics of a business plan (and if that business forum ever gets established, I'll vote that it be made a sticky!)

I've been looking at a few business ideas to diversify my income stream, and I will definitely be referring to this thread

Skip · #16 10/03/08, 10:36 AM

A link for helping write up a business plan. Even if one is going to farm as a "hobby" this is a good idea.

Skip · #17 10/03/08, 10:37 AM

A link for helping write up a business plan. Even if one is going to farm as a "hobby" this is a good idea.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/...cts/99-011.htm

GBov · #18 10/03/08, 11:14 AM

The thing that was said about getting the husband/wife on board or forget it is soooooo true. It took me AGES to get Mr GBov to agree to just chickens but he came around when I kept total track of what each chicken and each egg cost to produce and what the same thing would cost us in the shop.

It was hard going

but we got there in the end and he says that as long as it cost the same or less than the shop bought equivilant I can do it but then, for me its a hobby and I am not dragging him kicking and screaming down to the farm lol

If it were me I would start as a hobby and not jump in with both feet but as I am a slow learner I would quickly put us in teh poor house so you might be better at it than I am.

And that was a GREAT way to do a plan MorrisonCorner

I will have to use it after the big move

fishhead · #19 10/03/08, 11:28 AM

My suggestion is to start small so your mistakes will be small and non-fatal. Expect to spend all of your free time because the list of things that should be done is endless.

Quint · #20 10/04/08, 07:03 AM

MC makes a very good point about the hard business side of things. Presently I'm in the beginning stages of developing a product line for my farm. I'm in the process of figuring the cost of clearing land, processing the product, packaging and marketing. If I just run right out and do it I could end up making a mess of things and lose money hand over fist. Right now I'm figuring out how long the payoff would be in terms of equipment and land preparation. I've also got to run everything by the tax accountant and lawyer. Add to that doing market research and trying to put out feelers to distributors and I'm putting an awful lot of hours into bookwork and research before I've even cut down one stick of brush or turned one shovel full of earth.