basement stone wall repair

[primal1]

Well with all the rain we've been having I was forced to move this chore to the top of my renovation list. After seeing 3 holes in my basement wall just gush like open garden hoses and fill my basement with 3 feet of water in less that 45 minutes...

On the outer wall I have pulled dirt away from the stones to see how bad the holes are, well, for the most part there is very little mortar left. Obvious holes, like where the dirt had already washed into the basement, i have already filled. My first question is how far below the soil level do i need to go? Hoping some of you have old stone house renovation experience LOL.

The inner walls also need to be repointed as the old mortar just crumbles away when touched... surprisingly, all the walls are still straight and all the stones are where they were laid some 115+ years ago. 2 walls are 4 feet thick below ground level and 2 feet thick above ground. The other 2 walls are 2 feet thick all the way. The inside should be pretty straight forward, though I am also wondering about the dirt that over the years has washed into the basement. The layer of dirt in the basement is about 3-4 inches thick and basically sits on a thick layer of grey clay, nasty stuff to shovel! But if i remove the dirt and seal up the walls is there a chance that the clay will dry and become a hard surface?

Thanks for any help

PS. I am not recieving emails from the forum and it is still difficult to actually get to pages but I will respond ASAP!
website AT homesteadingtoday DOT com also fails(but i don't know if it ever worked)

[Scott SW Ohio]

We had a similar problem with the house we are living in now. I had one very leaky stone basement wall and the mortar was largely deteriorated. When it rained, water came in at several places. First I dug a sump and installed a sump pump - luckily we have a concrete floor - so that eliminated the standing water problem. And the sump is directly below where the worst wall leaks were, so it was like having an indoor waterfall on rainy days - kinda charming but still in need of work.

Last winter, working from the inside, I dug out the deteriorated mortar between the stones to a depth of about 4 inches with a screwdriver and then filled in with new standard premix mortar. Then I applied two coats of waterproofing paint. This pretty much solved the problem and my basement is 90 percent dry now. I never did make any repairs from outside. Since then I have made repainted a few spots where water still got in and expect this will be an ongoing maintenance task.

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

I'm a stone mason. If you want to do it right, you must dig all-the-way down on the outside, dig the rotten stuff out, and repoint every joint as far back as you can...same on the inside. While dug down you can install flexible hose for sump system if soil is clay.
You also can waterproof the outside wall when it is dug down.

Some people prepare the basement with a gravel base and sump pit (if soil is sandy you might be able to skip sumppump installation), then pour concrete thru basement window.

I don't recommend using waterproof paint on stonework on the inside as Scott did. Unless the stone is hard such as granite, painting can often trap moisture in the stone. It needs to breathe on the inside, otherwise some types of stone will rot with the trapped moisture.

RF

[RedTartan]

Hi there. I'm getting ready to do this too. My house is 183 years old and I have previously painted fieldstone walls in my basement.

I called restoration professionals to get advice. I was told that it is indeed a terrible idea to paint stone walls (sorry Scott) as it would trap moisture in the walls and cause the lime in my mortar to dissolve. You need to get special mortar to point the joints and it will depend on the hardness of your stone. The people I talked to (check them out: http://www.virginialimeworks.com/ ) Were able to tell me what I needed by asking me a couple of simple questions. They'll ship to you and the mortar I need is less than $28 for a 65 lb. bag! Yay!

I'm a firm believer in letting houses breathe and since my house hasn't been sealed from the outside for almost 200 years and is still doing well (I don't have gushing water, just condensation) I don't want to seal it inside or out. The guy at Virginia Lime Works told me that the mortar actually rots from the inside out, so you can start by pointing the inside. He actually said that the previous owners painting the wall likely caused my problem. Dig into the wall until you reach solid matter and point from there. Hopefully you won't need to go all the way through the wall.

Personally, I'm removing all the paint, pointing, and installing a dehumidifier. Virginia lime works says that this will give my walls another hundred years.

Good luck,

RedTartan

[artificer]

You need to solve the problem, not the symptom. The problem is water around the foundation. Is this runoff that goes to the foundation, or is it water from saturated soil.

If the problem is the soil is saturated, and draining into the basement, you need to dig out the outside of the foundation, re-mortar the stone, and water proof it. Then add drainage pipe and a pump, or if you can, trench so the pipe drains. Backfill with gravel over the drain.

One "hail Marry" attempt is to drill sump holes deeper than the foundation, and put sump pumps in them. This gives the water a place to go, and hopefully drains it away from the foundation.

The best case scenario is if the lawn is not landscaped properly, and is directing the water into the foundation. Once you correct the problem with simple dirt moving, you should have a drier basement. The clay in the basement comment makes me think its more likely the landscaping, rather than subsurface water flow.

Where do you downspouts drain? Against the building, or directed away/downslope?

You don't want to use cement or mortar for concrete blocks on stone. As others have said, it needs to breathe. They make special lime mortars for stone foundations, basicly its what was originally used.

Sealing a stone foundation can lead to catastrophic failure. The lime dissolves, and is washed away, and nothing holds the stones in place. You build up hydrostatic pressure, like a dam, and then the wall collapses inwards. Not good.

Is the ground around the area flooded? If so, then you'll have to wait untill it drys out some.
Michael

[primal1]

WOW, Scott get your shovel man HEHE... oh and the paint scraper!
I had a feeling i would have to dig deep LOL but I do want the job done right.
I'll start with the interior and hope for a drier late summer/fall to dig out the exterior.

I dug the exsisting sump a few inches deeper than it was and once i get the walls done i will lay french drain at the base of the interior walls that will feed the sump. I will have to extend the sump exit hose further away from the house too, as when we get a lot of rain it just contributes to the water that is trying to get in.

I am lucky that most of the stone is hard stuff so I can get premix mortar @ $4.20/66lb.
RF, somebody told i should use mortar adhesive added to the mortar for a better bond, though i'm sure it does help is the added expense worth it? Also what kind of waterprrofing would you recommend on exterior wall. Tar is cheap, messy but probably the best thing as far as durability.

RedTartan, I have a dehumifier ready to go and also a little space heater as it seems it helps a lot to get the dampness out of the air.

Thanks so much for the help guys, I feel much better prepaired to deal with this now

[Macybaby]

Old homes can be such fun!

When we bought ours, we were told the cellar was perpetually wet - We do have a high water table, but we discovered a few other problems.

1. They used the old cistern (cement lined brick) for the septic. It was about 5' from the house. When you showered, the sump ran constant. - we have a new septic system.

2. Incoming waterline had been "repaired" with pvc, and was leaking at each joint. This caused even more water in the soil around the cellar - we have all new water lines.

3. Some had bright idea to put down plastic and rock around 2 sides of back yard (probably about 300sq ft). They made a "trench" around the permieter to sort of "lock in" the plastic edge. It ended at the access to the cellar. End result, all the water that ran off the house and onto the plastic followed the trench around to the cellar door, and ran in. All that was removed

4. Landscaping had been built up over the years, so sill and foundation was below ground level. - Have new sill plate and working on fixing all landscaping.

We also had the problem of water gushing in when it rained. Our cellar was dug out under the house after it was built, so only the top portion is rock (no mortor). One wall is brick - it got washed out when a water line broke years ago.

We also put an additon with a real basement on the house, and now the access to the cellar is through the new basement. We sill have the high water table and the sump is still running every couple of hours (we've had a wet year). It runs all winter long too, and is a challenge diverting it so we don't have a huge ice dam built up by the house come spring.

Cathy

[primal1]

Artificer, Yes the landscaping is terrible and I am already working on building up the land where most of the water is being chaneled to. The house never had gutters but I am planning on installing some as soon as i finish repainting the exterior, which is becoming quite the challenge with all the rain!

The mortar i am getting says it is for bricks, blocks and field stone and not only was I told it was what i need but I saw a couple of stone masons using it while fixing bosses stone foundation on his barn... I will check again though because the bag does not say anything about lime in it... contains masonry cement and fine sands, type N??

Macybaby, I couldn't agree more that they are such fun hehe.
My old septic is also close to the house(2.5 feet) and just below where it is, is one place where the water comes in the basement. Municipality is installing sewage system in the fall so I will be filling the old septic soon.
My house sits at the bottom of a slight hill which catches al the water running off a 5 acre field, there is a large drain pipe that is supposed to catch all that water however it was laid in well over 50 years ago. 2 nieghbors and myself dug it out and replaced it with new 8" piping fitted with a sock to prevent cloging however there must be a blockage further down the pipe(under the street) as it seems to take forever for the water to drain. Hopefully the municipality will replace it when they tear up the road for the sewage pipes.

Update: I checked with the company and they checked with a mason and they say the mortar mix that I bought is good for the job i have to do.
http://bomix.ca/produits.php?id=9&cat=base&lang=en&p=46
is the stuff.
For small pointing jobs they do recommend this stuff http://bomix.ca/produits.php?id=70&cat=rep&lang=en&p=21
but it would cost a fortune to do an entire basement.

[Rocky Fields]

Bonjour P1.

Here is a link to an explanation of some mortar mix types:

http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuild...type-need.aspx

I recommend Type S for your application. A material yard that sells stone,sand,concrete,etc. usually sells a decent quality name brand mortar mix. Home improvement centers usually sell carp in a bag...comprendez-vous?

RF

[primal1]

Rocky Fields, Thanks so much! Yes type S looks like what i would want.. CRAZY they would not even tell me since they do sell it. Anyway i'll check with my neighbor he works at a gravel place

cheers!

[primal1]

So i've spent quite a bit of time digging and re-pointing but on the outside of the basement stone wall about a foot and a half down I am hitting clay! Digging this out is becoming a MUCH bigger task than expected.

Talking with a friend about the water that gushes through the wall in spring and heavy rains led me to rethink the plan, so tell me what you think.

Rather than digging through the clay, i do as mentioned earlier in this thread which is inserting pipe into the interior stone wall at points where the water is coming in but rather than directing the water to the sumpump these pipes will channel that water through the basement and out the other side of the house where the ground level will carry it away from the house. I am confident that the pressure of the water is enough to carry it through a straight pipe(no corners) at a rise of ~2 feet.... what say you?

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

I say you bring in a back hoe if you can afford it. After digging and tuckpointing, waterproof outside wall and backfill with topsoil (so future water will drain more readily).

Best to do it right and forget the bandaid approach...if you don't, the floorboards above will rot and you'll have mildew and fungal disease in your house.

RF

[primal1]

Originally Posted by Rocky Fields

Hey.

I say you bring in a back hoe if you can afford it. After digging and tuckpointing, waterproof outside wall and backfill with topsoil (so future water will drain more readily).

Best to do it right and forget the bandaid approach...if you don't, the floorboards above will rot and you'll have mildew and fungal disease in your house.
RF

I'd love to... but after the house was built somebody added a large outdoor kitchen right along the wall with the holes! Since this add-on is built with square handmade nails, it's a keeper. I have lifted a few floor boards to get in there to dig but as you can imagine I don't have enough time left to finish the job this year.
I agree the pipes are a somewhat temp fix but even after the wall is eventually repaired(next year hopefully) having the pipes there could be a safeguard of sorts should the water eventually find it's way back into the basement.

I'm just wondering if this is a viable aproach for the meantime, and if the 3 holes gush like gardenhoses full on, should I use 2 inch piping to ensure the least amount of pressure possible on the outer wall.

[pheasantplucker]

You should look at the weep holes in the block. Our walls were bowing and cracking and there was some water coming in. I wasn't comfortable doing this job, so I paid a pro to come in. They busted up the floor (about a foot and a half in...all around the outside perimeter walls. They trenched that and put down perforated pvc pipe and covered with stone, then cement once again. Then they treated all the walls (after cleaning the weep holes) and put thoroughseal on it and a layer of plastic (really thin). After waiting through the next rainy season, and saw that it worked (knock on wood), I framed in the walls and covered with water proof sheet rock. If you have that much going on, I'd leave it to the pros if you can afford it. Otherwise, be prepared to spend long hours. good luck

[stranger]

Originally Posted by primal1

Well with all the rain we've been having I was forced to move this chore to the top of my renovation list. After seeing 3 holes in my basement wall just gush like open garden hoses and fill my basement with 3 feet of water in less that 45 minutes...

On the outer wall I have pulled dirt away from the stones to see how bad the holes are, well, for the most part there is very little mortar left. Obvious holes, like where the dirt had already washed into the basement, i have already filled. My first question is how far below the soil level do i need to go? Hoping some of you have old stone house renovation experience LOL.

The inner walls also need to be repointed as the old mortar just crumbles away when touched... surprisingly, all the walls are still straight and all the stones are where they were laid some 115+ years ago. 2 walls are 4 feet thick below ground level and 2 feet thick above ground. The other 2 walls are 2 feet thick all the way. The inside should be pretty straight forward, though I am also wondering about the dirt that over the years has washed into the basement. The layer of dirt in the basement is about 3-4 inches thick and basically sits on a thick layer of grey clay, nasty stuff to shovel! But if i remove the dirt and seal up the walls is there a chance that the clay will dry and become a hard surface?

Thanks for any help

PS. I am not recieving emails from the forum and it is still difficult to actually get to pages but I will respond ASAP!
website AT homesteadingtoday DOT com also fails(but i don't know if it ever worked)

your problem is on the outside, dig around the perimeter and clean the stones good, repoint, put some gravel around and lay some perforated pipe here, you could even put some heavy plastic on the wall between the stones and the back fill. there are also compaines that clame they can water proof from the outside without digging, eve gutters help a lot to keep water away also

[primal1]

Originally Posted by pheasantplucker

You should look at the weep holes in the block. Our walls were bowing and cracking and there was some water coming in. I wasn't comfortable doing this job, so I paid a pro to come in. They busted up the floor (about a foot and a half in...all around the outside perimeter walls. They trenched that and put down perforated pvc pipe and covered with stone, then cement once again. Then they treated all the walls (after cleaning the weep holes) and put thoroughseal on it and a layer of plastic (really thin). After waiting through the next rainy season, and saw that it worked (knock on wood), I framed in the walls and covered with water proof sheet rock. If you have that much going on, I'd leave it to the pros if you can afford it. Otherwise, be prepared to spend long hours. good luck

AH! I didn't know about weep holes! My stone walls never had them and it's a wonder that my walls are still straight after so many years! My guess at the reason they are still straight is that the wall with the pressure behind it is only about 22 feet long minus 6 feet of corner stone.. Anyhow, I guess the holes I am thinking of putting in with the piping would in fact be weep holes. I did check prices to get it done properly but it is not an option for the next year or 2.

Next summer I will finish digging along the outer wall and re-pointing/water proofing.. I just need a solution for the up coming rainy winter and spring where the excess water is sure to fill my basement yet again. I probably wouldn't need to do a temp fix if our hydro lines weren't so old and unreliable, but when it rains we lose power and the mighty sumpump becomes useless.

Most of my neighbours did install french drains and i won't be making that mistake, we are too close to a flood zone for french drains to work properly so water proofing and weep holes are my only options. The long hours don't bother me too much so long as I am not creating further problems HAHA, I guess thats a large part of the reason I need to run plans and idea's in a place like this for some feedback! thank you all so much for your input!

[Rocky Fields]

P1,

You use weeps above ground to let water out, not below ground to let water in. Goal is for stone basement wall to be a barrier.

Alternative: During dry season, relay stone from the inside...small section at a time to prevent cave-ins.

To buy time,instead of pipe, put rain gutter at base of wall on inside, flush with the wall, so it directs water to sumppump. Buy a battery backup sumppump...in the US, "Ace-In-The Hole" sold by Ace Hardware is an example. Gutter should ideally be set in concrete at base and caulked where it meets wall to guarantee it runs down into gutter,then to sump and out.

BTW: put long extension on ejector tube of sump pump, so you don't keep dumping water next to foundation wall...you want water as far away as possible.

I have found I can tuckpoint back six inches or so after removing loose or missing mortar and get a waterproof stone wall...

RF

[primal1]

Originally Posted by Rocky Fields

P1,

You use weeps above ground to let water out, not below ground to let water in. Goal is for stone basement wall to be a barrier.

Alternative: During dry season, relay stone from the inside...small section at a time to prevent cave-ins.

To buy time,instead of pipe, put rain gutter at base of wall on inside, flush with the wall, so it directs water to sumppump. Buy a battery backup sumppump...in the US, "Ace-In-The Hole" sold by Ace Hardware is an example. Gutter should ideally be set in concrete at base and caulked where it meets wall to guarantee it runs down into gutter,then to sump and out.

BTW: put long extension on ejector tube of sump pump, so you don't keep dumping water next to foundation wall...you want water as far away as possible.

I have found I can tuckpoint back six inches or so after removing loose or missing mortar and get a waterproof stone wall...

RF

I like the idea of a battery backup pump but man they ain't cheap! Might have just got a new job so we'll see in a month or so if i can get one.

I have dug a trench along the inside wall directly to the sumpump and the pump exit pipe goes about 20 feet out the basement to the main drain, but when we're talking 3 feet of water I think i would still need more than one pump to pump it out fast enough.

I may have to live with the flooding till next spring when i can repoint the exterior wall properly, which is only really a hassle because my water pump and water heater are in the basement were the flooding happens. Though since i have repointed the interior wall i may drill holes as i am still worried that the pressure may cause more damage to the wall, but i'll wait a bit before i do that because i may stille be able to get a better pump soon