Propane or Nat Gas

Bentley · #1 07/20/08, 11:30 AM

Hello good people. Great forum. First post. Been mostly lurking and learning for a while. Sure seems like a bunch of intelligent, thoughtful, and outspoken folks here. (My kinda people.)

ahem:

Am planning on retireing and building new home within a year to 18 months, and am looking for your opinion on the plus's/minuses of natural gas or propane. Nat gas is available at my property (4 ares in country whoohoo)

Seems like a no brainer, but the price of nat gas sure does fluctuate more than it used to. No telling what the future will hold. Of course, the same is also true of propane.

We plan to have gas stove, gas hot water heater, and functioning gas log heater for fireplace. I wanted to set a wood heater, but we ain't getting any younger.
So, if you were mid to late 50's, and building a new home, how would you set it up? and why? By the way, our place is in Louisiana where cooling in summer is more important that heating in winter.

b

Batt · #2 07/20/08, 12:58 PM

Welcome aboard! I'll take a stab at your question if you want. It used to be that most natural gas appliances could be converted to use propane. Fairly simple conversion. So which ever way you decide to go why not make sure you have the parts (usually just a screw in orifice) to make the conversion if it is ever needed. I'd probably start with the natural gas while keeping my eye open for a good deal to purchase a propane tank. JMO

SolarGary · #3 07/20/08, 05:27 PM

Hi,
You can use this fuel comparison calculator to see which would be the better deal where you are building:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Referenc...uelCompare.htm

In most places, NG is much cheaper than propane or electricity.

If you are not going to have much of a heating bill, then I suppose water heating will be the biggest gas user. Think about solar hot water. Very simple solar water heaters work well in Louisiana where freezing is not a problem (I think?).

If you are building the home, you have a good chance to minimize the energy requirements. No matter what kind of fuel you decide on, using less of it is always nice.
A couple links that might be helpful:
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...solarhomes.htm
A lot of this is for heating climates, but there are also some techniques/examples for warm/humid climates.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...er_heating.htm
Solar water heating.

Gary

Windy in Kansas · #4 07/20/08, 09:09 PM

In the thought process---piped all the way fuel versus trucked fuel. While it seems a no brainer as you stated one must look at all costs.

Natural gas most often comes through a utility company that charges for pipeline replacement, safety workers, meter readers, franchise fees, simply having a meter service charge fees, and all sorts of taxes. I simply don't like paying $10 to $15 of monthly fees before even paying for any gas consumed.

For that reason I like propane. You buy a tankful and boom no more fees until you need more. Uh, well, I hope there is no boom, just a figure of speech. Since my propane tank is an old tank my family used to fill tractors with it has a wet leg and fill hose. I fill 20# cylinders from it and from those I even refill the so called small disposable cylinders for lantern use.

Bottom line however is that generally being hooked to natural gas service is cheaper.

By the way, welcome to the forums.

rambler · #5 07/20/08, 11:39 PM

Any more LP is being more closely restricted & watched; you need your tank inspected, placed in the right place, and properly plated.

So, LP is getting to be more like natural gas all the time, as to the monthly fee type of deal.

A whole town depends on the ng pipeline; they would be hard pressed to let it go empty - they can add an air/LP mix to 'tide it over' during shortages.... There would be riots if the whole town went without ng.....

On the other hand, if they run out of LP, so your individual tank doesn't get filled - you're only one person, what are you going to do about it?

Sometimes there is safety in numbers, I think the ng is a more reliable source of energy - only because of the numbers of people that would complain & govt assistance to quiet them down again. LP you are on your own, which appeals to me greatly but ain't no one going to care if I run out today I'm only one miserable soul.....

--->Paul

Bearfootfarm · #6 07/20/08, 11:57 PM

Quote:

It used to be that most natural gas appliances could be converted to use propane. Fairly simple conversion. So which ever way you decide to go why not make sure you have the parts (usually just a screw in orifice) to make the conversion if it is ever needed.

More and more of the newer appliances require changing the entire burner and regulator assembly. MAKE SURE it's a "simple conversion" before you buy if you think you may want to switch

Quint · #7 07/21/08, 01:59 AM

One thing I always liked about natural gas is the supply is about as dependable as it gets.

A cousin of mine lived where they got a lot of ice storms, summer thunderstorms and power outages in the summer from grid overloading. He was always having his power go out and in one instance he was a couple weeks without power. He had thought about a diesel or propane generator but he could only run it a while before he needed diesel brought in. Diesel might be stuck in the ground with no way to pump it and the propane might be gone or be unable to be trucked out to his location. Gas, unless there was some real cataclysm, would probably always flow.

His home was all electric at the time but there was natural gas available at the road. He went with a natural gas generator and replaced his furnace, water heater and range with NG models. The gas company even ran the piping for free and gave him a discount on his appliances.

A winter after he installed the NG generator they had an ice storm and the power was out a week. His genset kicked in and they powered their entire house. Not only didn't they freeze or have pipes burst but they more or less carried on as if nothing had happened.

Funny thing was in the next year or so many of his neighbors started putting in NG generators. Makes me wish I had NG available so I could have a back-up genset and some cheaper fuel than propane.

Callieslamb · #8 07/21/08, 07:52 AM

I think it depends more on the goals that you have set for yourself. We are going propane, because we can have a tank of it sitting around and we can use it as we want. With NG, you can't really have an 'on hand' supply that you own. I can fill my tank at a known price. NG they can raise at any time on you. But other valid points have been made also. Our goal is to have a year's supply of heating/cooking fuel - paid for. Propane is the way for us to meet that goal.

newfieannie · #9 07/21/08, 08:10 AM

I'm hooked up to natural gas too. i'm pleased with it but i dont have a back-up. i dont think it will work if the power is out will it? one thing i have wondered about. can i install a wood stove.? i think i heard somewhere it's not allowed if you have natural gas. i might be all wrong about that ...Georgia.

ps. oh, i see where Quint mentioned a NG generator. i might look into that. any idea on the price? G.

Windy in Kansas · #10 07/21/08, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfieannie

i dont think it will work if the power is out will it?

Yes, natural gas keeps flowing in the lines even if there is a power outage. The city where I live had a severe ice storm last year and left the city in the dark for several days. Without electricity to drive furnace blowers, or provide ignition many simply had their homes getting colder and colder and had to see public shelter.

I have one of the unvented propane room heaters, a propane lantern, and propane camp stove so the outage hardly affected me. My neighbors house dropped into the 40s so I loaned the heater to them to bring the temperature back up. By the time their home had gained 6º electricity was restored and the furnace took over. I hope he now sees the need for being prepared.

Bentley · #11 07/21/08, 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=rambler;3205927]Any more LP is being more closely restricted & watched; you need your tank inspected, placed in the right place, and properly plated. This is true. County agencies are always looking for something they can inspect on a broad scale in order to enhance the tax base, employ more folks, and thusly have more of the "voters" dependent on them. That allows the government to exert more control over us sheep.

[quote]A whole town depends on the ng pipeline; they would be hard pressed to let it go empty - they can add an air/LP mix to 'tide it over' during shortages.... There would be riots if the whole town went without ng.....[quote]
I'm not sure how much you know about flammable gases, but mixing air goes against every "best practice" known to man, and would add tremendous risk, and liability. As the new kid on this forum block, I hesitate to use the word stupid, but that's the first word that comes to mind when someone suggest adding air to a flammable gas. All that's then needed to have an explosion is the spark. Plus, the heating value or BTU would be degraded to the point of where it wouldn't perform well, and if it ever started burning inside the pipe because someone added air, then you would see buildings burning down all over. Please folks, never introduce air into a vessel or pipe with natural gas or propane. To do so, is to beg for trouble.

Thanks for all the opinions. I appreciate them all.

b

rambler · #12 07/21/08, 10:56 AM

I'm a simple dirt farmer. At this point I've only used 20 lb propane tanks for my torch set, about all the gas I've used.

Back a decade or so, my town had some issues with pilot lights going out in 100's of homes - in winter. The explination in the paper was that lp was added to the ng lines because it was a backup of some sort to keep the gas flowing; when switched back to just ng too much air was in the line & it popped off the pilot lights.

This is my old memory of an article in a paper written by a journalist who likely knows less about gas systems than I do.....

The jest of what I remember was that lp can be substituted in a ng system for emergency use if you somehow cut the btu's of the lp down to near what ng has. The reporter had implied just good old air was used, but if I remember that right or if he understood it right (perhaps nitrogen or some other 'special' air?) I donno.

The exact way of doing that, or if it is still allowed/ done these days I don't know.

Myself, I think ng will be cheaper & more dependable than lp more often than not.

If things get so bad we run out of ng in the pipelines, then likely many other things, such as lp, will also be terribly disrupted. I believe ng is dedicated pipelines, which makes them pretty solid supply.

Here in farm country where a lot of lp is used seasonally in cold weather & for grain drying, it can be difficult to get at certain times of the year.

A good argument can be made for having your own tanks and enough supply of lp for a year & you don't have to worry - for a year anyhow. But up here in the north cold, that can be several very large tanks worth, with a lot of cost; and there are rules floating out there on being a FEMA hazard if you store large quantities of lp. While not finalized, it is something to consider for down the road.

Depends how your philosophy is on such things. Both sides can be seen.

Myself, I'd do a wood stove as a backup for heat, as that is the most important need where I live, one would need a seperate chimney and follow install rules, or they make combo gas/wood stoves still.

If you live in the deep south, your need for heat becomes far less of a 'need' and one can get by however for a time.

--->Paul

texican · #13 07/21/08, 12:05 PM

Windy in Kansas made some great points, about the fees associated with natural gas, versus having propane delivered.

I think it's a valid point, having 10 to 15$/month added on to the bill each month.

But.... propane is Trucked... What happens when you're getting low on propane, and there's been some kind of emergency... weather (blizzard, floods) or refineries shut down... and trucks can't make it to your home??? All of a sudden you're completely out of fuel.

I'd go with gas, and have a propane tank backup... Double down on your fuel insurance.

If there's drilling in your area, you might check and see if there are any wells nearby... under certain circumstances, a home can be legally hooked up to the well, and use all the gas they want, for free. There are costs involved, in this free gas scenario... usually a lawyer, well connection supplies, regulators, valves, etc., and a pipe to your home from the well. I have free natural gas... it's a true blessing.

RiverPines · #14 07/21/08, 12:13 PM

Given a chioce...natural gas!!
Here it cost us $40 per month for propane (we have our own 100lb tanks) just for our stove and hot water!! Its summer and we are paying that much to cook and shower while our natural gas friends that have gas hot water and stoves are paying 10 per month and less!!!!

Its a no brainer if there is a choice. We dont have a choice. Our only options are electric (also insanely high) or propane.

As for cost fluctuation....LOL propane is worse and only goes up in leaps and bounds along with all oil based products.

newfieannie · #15 07/21/08, 12:38 PM

yes i know the gas keeps running Windy but if the power is out the furnace wont run will it?. i also have a gas fireplace. that is remote controll. i was thinking that would work but then again the blower wouldn't come on without power. i should look into this stuff before the cold weather comes. ...Georgia.

Quint · #16 07/22/08, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

What happens when you're getting low on propane, and there's been some kind of emergency... weather (blizzard, floods) or refineries shut down... and trucks can't make it to your home??? All of a sudden you're completely out of fuel.

Well, I had that happen last year winter and I learned that while my fireplace (an insert type) will keep the house from freezing it's far from comfortable especially in my bedroom which is on the other side of the house from the fireplace. I slept in the living room a lot. I did find however that with the TV, all the lights and computer going that my bedroom is insulated well enough that it will keep it surprisingly warm. One of the benefits of incandescent lighting. Yeah i know a wood stove is far, far more efficient but what can i say. I'm a romantic when it comes to fireplaces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by newfieannie

ps. oh, i see where Quint mentioned a NG generator. i might look into that. any idea on the price? G.

I think he told me he had 20 grand or so in the whole thing but it is pretty big one that will run his whole house A/C and all.

ChristyACB · #17 07/22/08, 05:17 AM

Given your location, Louisiana, you really should look at solar for your hot water. Though I don't know specifically where in LA you are going, the tendency for much of the state is to have greater cloud cover in the summer and clearer skies in the winter. That works for you well since you'll need less raise in temp in the summer than winter.

Keep in mind that your hot water heater is going to be the major pull on whatever method you choose and this is a way to provide protection against future rises in price as you age and can least afford it.

You should look at the SunMaxx 20. Good history, great price, low profile and superb longevity for that.

joseph97297 · #18 07/22/08, 05:50 AM

We are on NG but are thinking of changing....

last month we had 23 dollars worth of "use fees" and only used 11 dollars worth of NG (we locked in at 1.24 per therm).... Made me see red for a minute or two that our fees were more than our gas usage but hey, what can you do other than switch.

We use solar showers and have turned the hot water heater off for now during the summer months. My idea is to purchase a few tanks, that way I have a larger amount of storage for the propane. We are trying to move within the next two years to our property in MO so going to have to go to propane anyway.

We have an older Caloric double oven in the carport we use instead of inside the house and it can be switched to propane rather easy, but the wife wants a wood stove....yippe...

Here propane is going for 2.56 per gallon while NG is at 1.45 per therm, so no contest there, but the fees, the fees.......................

Gary in ohio · #19 07/22/08, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas

I
Natural gas most often comes through a utility company that charges for pipeline replacement, safety workers, meter readers, franchise fees, simply having a meter service charge fees, and all sorts of taxes. I simply don't like paying $10 to $15 of monthly fees before even paying for any gas consumed.

How the fee's are divided up should be an issue, what the cost is the issue.
With propane you paying for the same thing they just give you a bill that doesnt itemized it. Wait untill you propane bill as a second, diesel surcharge on it. Also the itemized bill also allows you to shop around for NG. In most areas you have a choice or 2 or 3 propane vendors. with natural GAS I can go to anyone in the country and buy gas from them at the rate that works best for me. I still pay the infrastructure fee, but I have lots more options of supplers.

Beeman · #20 07/22/08, 08:06 AM

No question, piped natural gas. Now on to more options. I would have some form of heat like a wood stove or fireplace insert at least. I understand the getting older part and all of that but in reality having a backup for heat and cooking wouldn't require much work or investment. I wouldn't have a place without some backup as a replacement for utilities for survival even for a short period. The not getting any younger part applies to tolerance for cold and surviving.