Zoning rant.

Old Vet · #1 07/12/08, 12:00 AM

Every once in a while people put up post saying that they are not allowed to do something like raise rabbits,have chickens have a garden or some other thing they want sympathy for not being able to do these things. If the area had zoning laws on the books then why buy their? It must be that they are forced to live their and they have no way to chose where they are going
to live. If their are zoning laws everybody needs to have a copy of them before they even consider to buy in the area. The more urban the area the worse laws are. That is why I live in the country. People need to either live where their are no zoning laws or resign them self to obeying them. You can get a variance but it may not have the proposed effect and you may be forced to defend it all the time. If your job is more important to you that you feel obliged to live in a certain area then be happy and do that. If you don't have the money to move what will you do if their is a tornado or an earthquake and have to move? OF course you can get aid from the Federal government if you qualify.

rootsandwings · #2 07/12/08, 05:36 AM

I grew up outside of zoning laws. dh and I bought our first house in a neighborhood that either didn't have zoning laws or the neighbors never cared about anything I did. because I never heard anything about zoning. second house too. third house everything was fine until we got a new neighbor. "I'm not allowed to what?!" I had never heard of such a thing. Honestly up until then I thought zoning was just houses vs. apartments vs, businesses. blame public education maybe. blame my parents. or look at it like somebody who'd only ever bought things that had regular old sales tax being the first in the family to fly and discovering when they went to pay for their ticket that "airport tax" is not 6%!

I was ticked! but you can bet when we moved (asap) I read the zoning before we looked at a place. you live and you learn. sometimes education is expensive and uncomfortable.

deaconjim · #3 07/12/08, 06:11 AM

I'm sure a lot of people bought homes before they thought they would ever care about the zoning. Then they get a little older and wiser, and feel the desire to live a simpler life and to be prepared for whatever the future might hold. In otherwords, they decide to be become homesteaders.

Guess what, they are zoned sheeple!

I hate it when that happens.

Gary in ohio · #4 07/12/08, 06:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Old Vet

.....
If their are zoning laws everybody needs to have a copy of them before they even consider to buy in the area. The more urban the area the worse laws are. That is why I live in the country. People need to either live where their are no zoning laws or resign them self to obeying them. ...

First off!! EVERYONE, No matter where you live city, county, urban or rural has zoning laws. These laws may or may not be enforced but they exist. They start with building codes, even if your county are has none of the books there is at least the unified (national) building code. From there there can be state, city or county created laws. They may also be entity created, such as health depth rules. If your land has frontage on a federal or state road there are zoning restriction that says what you can put within 30ft for the road.

Now getting a copy of the code is rather complex, You have many sources of laws so you need to go to all of them. On top of that there is no "ZONING" area of many law books, Its all intertwined and often in legal mumbo jumbo within a codification book. To complicate matters zoning and building codes are not retroactive. If a new law is passed most people are grandfathered, so the person with 20 rabbits next to you may be legal but your not permitted rabbits, so dont assume because someone is doing something its legal or illegal.

minnikin1 · #5 07/12/08, 06:59 AM

Not everyone buys into zoned areas. Sometimes zoning comes to you.
Often local governments sneak it in slowly.

Along the lines of what deaconjim pointed out, many many people are just realizing how dangerous it is to totally rely on the US food system.
I believe starvation is going to be a sudden and real issue in our nation in a very short while... and I would encourage EVERYONE who can hide 3 laying hens, a few rabbits, whatever... to do so.

Zoning laws of today are the death sentence of tomorrow.
History tells us that blind obedience can lead you into the gas chamber.

Doing what is "right" and doing what is "legal" - not always the same thing.

Macybaby · #6 07/12/08, 07:11 AM

Our property in WI was subject to building codes based on Federal and State regulations, but the township had NO zoning. While we lived there, the township voted to adopt the basic County level zoning. Basically that meant if you wanted to do something commercial, it had to be approved. There weren't really any "can't do" lists, you just had to get permission if you were doing something to make money. There was talk of someone wanting to open a dirt race track, and the Township realized they had no laws in place to have any say in the matter.

That was the first step, I doubt if it would be the last one. Seems as lot size gets smaller, people want to be able to control what happens on land around them that they don't own. Me, I just try to own it, then I don't have to worry about having something next door I really object to.

Cathy

Scrounger · #7 07/12/08, 08:24 AM

Not every county has zoning laws. Most pass them because of revenue issues (like mine did AFTER we moved). They realize the lost income they haven't been getting from permits.
Even with UBC, HUD, and other BUILDING codes, most farmers don't follow them because of not having building permits or zoning laws.
Our county has ZONING laws, but not BUILDING codes. As long as the proposed structure meets ZONING codes, there are no BUILDING codes (except for a dwelling).
We pay $25 for a Zoning Permit. we have no Building Permits or codes. If you could pass the electric inspection (in a dwelling), then you're ok. No other permits or inspections are required.
If it's an out building - no codes, no inspection, just zoning permit.
That being said, it's a good idea to follow code, but not MANDITORY (here anyway).

Batt · #8 07/12/08, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrounger

Not every county has zoning laws.

Nor building codes. The only permit I had to get to build my place was a septic permit because I was putting in a septic tank within 1/4 mile of a federal lake. Oh, Yeah...The well driller gave me a paper that the well was lined so deep, again because of the lake. Guess the feds didn't want me stealing water.

ChristyACB · #9 07/12/08, 09:52 AM

I'll second the sneaking in thing. I live in one of the oldest urban areas in the US so it is a commonwealth, not a standard city or county. They pass the weirdest things in the council and it just isn't possible to attend every one of those and give a cogent argument. Some seem innocuous at first until they are fleshed out and exampled and then, voila, major change. I also agree that a whole lot of people come to this type of life, they aren't born into it. They do what they can, me included, within the confines of their current life until they are in a position to change location. I would love to have chickens, but we have a poultry ban in the city limits unless you have a waiver from before the ban was put into effect. So the people about 1/2 mile from me who have lived on their tiny farmlet for over 100 years have chickens, but can't add turkeys or anything else. I can't have chickens, but I can have a pet swan! Go figure....

**Terri** · #10 07/12/08, 10:06 AM

We bought because we could afford it, and because when we could we were going to buy a palce with more land.

Life happens.

We bought the 5.5 acres with the ag zoning for our REAL farmette, and then we immediately got some problems to deal with. The land is still there, waiting for me to get more done on it, and this year, again, I cannot.

I do not COPMPLAIN about zoning as I bought this house with an acre knowing that it was there. I do sometimes mention it as a reason why I do not have a horse/cow/goat or whatever.

Beltane · #11 07/12/08, 10:06 AM

The biggie folks need to look into ahead of time is if the land is zone AGRICULTRUAL or RESIDENTIAL. Many of the issues I see crop up here have to do with those two types of zoning. Residential zoning isn't always accomodating to the homesteader, but you're all set with agricultural zoning.

Danaus29 · #12 07/12/08, 10:12 AM

Our county revises zoning codes every so often. What was ok and legal here 10 years ago may not be now. There are some grandfather exeptions, some aren't exempted. But the county will not tell you which is and which isn't grandfathered. For example, the half acre of raw land I own was not buildable when I bought it. The county forced a septic sewer system on our area making the property buildable. Before we had a chance to file a building permit the county switched our location from rural residential (suburb building requirements with minimal side yard spacing) to plain rural meaning there is a 2 acre minimum lot size. On the plus side, I can now butcher my ducks on my property without worrying about zoning conflicts.

Some areas are getting very strict and hard nosed about zoning and enforcement. Franklin County allows one inoperable vehicle per residence, providing it meets certain standards (back yard or covered). One city has passed a resolution denying any inoperable vehicles and allowing the city to remove any offending vehicle from private property at the owner's expence. The city officials there do drive around searching for violations. In the county zoning enforcement is non existant unless a complaint is made.

bloogrssgrl · #13 07/12/08, 10:26 AM

I think zoning is a catch 22.

We all know the inconveniences zoning laws cause for everyday folks who might, at some point, try to alter their lifestyle. It can happen to the person who wants livestock, the person who wants to put up a privacy fence, the person who wants to run a small business from home, etc.

On the other hand, you don't have to look to far and hard to find the examples of what the lack of zoning laws can bring. If someone wants to do or put something in a certain area and there are no zoing laws to address it, or outdated zoing laws on the books, it will most likely end up with one individual doing what s/he wants, to the possible detriment of the neighbors.

Case in point: One of our local townships has a very outdated zoing code. An individual came in and bought some acreage in a rural residential area and began the process of developing a bottled water company. This was right in the middle of an area where the homes - some of them rather pricey country estates - are on wells. The residents and township tried to fight it but, because the township did not update their zoning law to meet the new state mandate of providing a type of zoning for every possible use, they lost. The water company went in, drilled several wells and started drawing water, and now trucks it out through the neighborhood, past all these people who chose to live in a "quiet country setting".

This is what "no zoning" got these people. And yet, when the township was invited to go in on a district zoning plan that would cover 5 municipalities that would provide for every type of zoning needed, they opted not to do so.

Zoning isn't nearly as bad as the lack of or poor planning - on the part of municipalities or homeowners. By the same token, it's hard to foresee what the future holds for our personal lives or our neighborhoods. Who would have guessed 40 years ago as suburbs were becomming the thing to do in planning that people would now regret not having the option to have a ocal grocer in their area? And now they cringe at the cost of gas and yet have to drive X miles to get to a store. Who would have guessed that so many small towns would now be kicking themselves for doing nothing about the rail lines being abandoned and eventually torn out?

A good municipal planner is worth her weight in gold.

Siryet · #14 07/12/08, 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=Gary in ohio;3190675]First off!! EVERYONE, No matter where you live city, county, urban or rural has zoning laws.

NOT SO!

The answer would be not to buy in a zoned area or an area with heavy handed deed restrictions, or restrictions.

**highlands** · #15 07/12/08, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary in ohio

First off!! EVERYONE, No matter where you live city, county, urban or rural has zoning laws. These laws may or may not be enforced but they exist. They start with building codes, even if your county are has none of the books there is at least the unified (national) building code.

Wrong. Our town has no zoning laws and no building codes. There are other towns like ours. Good thing. We keep fighting against it in our town - it comes up every ten years or so since about the 1980's.

I live here because there is no zoning. I checked before we bought our land to make sure there was no zoning and did the same in the town we lived before that. I don't want other people telling me what I can and can not do on my property. It is none of their business whether I have a home office, farm, manufacture, garden, hang my clothes on the line, don't paint my house, build a house or tear it down, etc.

What is annoying is the people who move out into areas with no zoning and once they build they promptly try to put in zoning regulations to 'protect their investment'. I wish those people would go back where they came from.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

Scrounger · #16 07/12/08, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adron

Nor building codes. The only permit I had to get to build my place was a septic permit because I was putting in a septic tank within 1/4 mile of a federal lake. Oh, Yeah...The well driller gave me a paper that the well was lined so deep, again because of the lake. Guess the feds didn't want me stealing water.

Yeah, here, too. We have zoning, regulations - most of which are geared at keeping out big hog, cattle, chicken and turkey, farms - but no building codes. The only thing I had to get was a permit for my electrical box. It had to be inspected before I could get the electricity hooked up. No septic, code, or other inspections required. They also inspected the box ONLY, not any of the wiring in the house (although, I rewired it myself and did it the way it should be done....).

Old Vet · #17 07/12/08, 01:39 PM

In my area people will laugh at you if you ask for a permit to do most anything The only inspection that I have had is by the electric company to see if it would be alright to hook electricity to my box. Nothing else had to be inspected and the county doesn't have a permit for anything. The next county has permits for everything and even a housing permit for all houses. If you buy a house or rent you must have a housing permit to move into that house. You can't give me a place like that.

For those that have zoning that creeps up have you kept up with the county government and went to their meetings and complained about it? If not then you get what you deserve. I go to my county corm court meetings and have complained about things and have been able to stop most of the things that I do not want to pass.

RiverPines · #18 07/12/08, 02:02 PM

In our case we were lower income and living where we couldn't have anything.
We could only dream.

We worked hard to make it possible to move. It took years....I was 46 when we finally got our place thats zoned ag!!!

It took a lot of work and patients. We did it all with little cash and a lot of struggle. We lived simply and as cheap as we could waiting for the day.
We had to find something we could afford because we went with a traditional loan and needed money down.
After a loooooooooong time we found a foreclosure that sat and dickered the price down that fit our financial means.

We now live in a place thats affordable for our lower income, and we can raise our own meat and have gardens up the bazooka.

Our place is a dump mind you, but we have land and this place is getting fixed up, slowly, and a little step at a time, but as time passes a little better is better than having nothing but rules, regulations and living without your hearts desires.

Its possible if you strive, work and have patients.

Finding land was our goal. Making it happen was what we worked for.

The best part...our place is a lot like the place I grew up on...untamed, river property.
The second best thing, it didn't take till I was 60 like I thought it would!!!

After all these long years I am once again, home.

Scrounger · #19 07/12/08, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverPines

After all these long years I am once again, home.

And THAT is the most improtant part....

EasyDay · #20 07/12/08, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrounger

If you could pass the electric inspection (in a dwelling), then you're ok. No other permits or inspections are required.

Same way here. As long as a qualified electrician connects you to the main, no other code applies.

When we were gutting the old house, DH asked the county building inspector what permits would we need. CBI said, "permits for what?". DH said "building". CBI said, "oh, you don't need any permits". Same inspector said that if we have more than 10 acres, we don't need even a septic, that a cess pool is just fine. (But we put in septic anyway.)