How serious is tresspassing?

GoddessKristie · #1 07/11/08, 01:11 PM

We have goats that are not allowed in our city limits. We live in a very small town and have Nigerian Dwarf goats in our back yard. So far we have not had any problems with any of our nighbors and no one has given any indication that they know or care that we have them. We would not have even dreamed of getting illegal animals except that our son has a severe milk allergy and goats milk is simply not available near us. I could drive close to an hour and buy it for $16 a gallon, but we'd go broke. We do have a note from our ped saying that he is severely allergic and that he has not responded to any treatments, that it is imperitive to his health and well-being that we be allowed to keep a small herd for dairy production. We are trying to be as prepared as possible in case he does hear them one day (they are not at all visible from the road).
My quesion is this:
There is a city council member who walks up and down the road every day. If he were to come by our house when the girls were being loud and heard them and he walked around our house and into our back yard to see them without our knowledge or conscent, is there anything we could do about it? That's tresspassing, right? He should not be excused because he is a councilman, should he? Right and wrong are not always the law, and I know nothing about the law. Would we have a way out if that were how we were found out? Could we press charges against him if this happened?
Has anyone been in a similar situation?

XLT · #2 07/11/08, 01:22 PM

Don't know about Indiana, but in San Antonio, TX, yes. Whoever wants to can call code compliance at any time for any reason.

He doesn't have to trespass to call in something he heard. Although, are you sure he even knows what he is hearing?

I wouldn't borrow trouble, if it comes, deal with it then. As far as keeping goats in the city limits, there are people here who house their goats in their garage with a big doggy door to the backyard during the day. Apparently, there is a loophole for "pet" animals and that they sleep "inside the house" is good enough for the city to consider them pets. And whose to say you couldn't milk your pets?

Just a thought,

WindowOrMirror · #3 07/11/08, 01:41 PM

So, let me get this straight; you are knowingly in violation of a county or city ordinance and are asking what you can do if someone else breaks the law on your property?

As was stated... anyone can call at anytime and report a code violation. They don't even have to be right... kind of like getting sued that way.

I get WHY you're doing something against the city code... but I would have thought you might get a waiver if you MUST have the milk?

R

DaleK · #4 07/11/08, 01:56 PM

If he trespasses you could POSSIBLY get him fined, chances are nothing will happen. Your goats will be just as gone.

bloogrssgrl · #5 07/11/08, 01:57 PM

You might want to check into the possibility of a variance. It sound like you have extenuating circumstances and can prove a hardship. Perhaps your council might be more accepting of it if you take it through the proper channels?

big rockpile · #6 07/11/08, 02:02 PM

Well truth you are looking for an ongoing war.

I lived in a small town that you were allowed animals long as they didn't smell get loud and such.

I lived next to a AR person and the Mayors Brother.I had Rabbits and Chickens.Well the Mayors Brother called in saying my Chickens smelled.Well yes I did have a large number that most was ready to butcher.

Well the Law came I was cuffed first off because I was known as a violent person

.Questioned me on my animals,give me so long to get it taken care of.Got it taken care of,still had a few for Laying.Law comes back,cuffed me again.Told me good Job and told neighbor there was nothing they could do.

Funny the Mayor had a very Large Unfenced Junk Yard in the middle of Town,with a couple Pittbulls running lose that put me in my Pickup going there on City Business.

Town it just depends on who you are.

big rockpile

marvella · #7 07/11/08, 02:02 PM

another alternative- it is quite possible to live a healthy and happy life without any kind of dairy products.

mamita · #8 07/11/08, 02:02 PM

him hearing the goats isn't necessarily trespassing........so if there is a code/ordinance against goats.....you might have a true problem. just because your neighbors haven't complained doesn't mean you're in the clear. ONE complaint.........and an ordinance to back it up.........good-bye goats. it's true that you could give evidence as to why you have the goats, but...........I'm going to be honest.......it doesn't look good for you in the end results. (hugs)

Gary in ohio · #9 07/11/08, 02:09 PM

Walking onto your property may not be trespassing. Trespassing happens when someone has knowledge that they are not permitted on your land. If you have no signs, no fences or structures to notify me then I am not trespassing. If your land is mark, you have a fence or you verbal tell me to stay off or get off and and stay then I am trespassing. Land rights vary by state but in general walking on your land is not trespassing.l If that was the case when anyone enter your property it would be trespassing.

Its a bit humors, your so worried about a council person breaking the law, yet you have admitted to break a law yourself. Your going to make more waves kicking a council person off your property than talking to them as to why. A goat for the sake of having a goat is one thing, A goat to help a health issue is another. Assuming none of the neighbors are complaining, Your goat is healthy and its not stinking I dout anyone would even care. If they do, no they are not going to press charges. They will tell you to get rid of the goat, this gives you an option to appeal or get a variance to have a goat. If your in a semi rural area they will understand, If you in a subdivsion in a big city they may not be as forgiving.

MELOC · #10 07/11/08, 02:13 PM

if they hear the goats or have a complaint they have reason to come and investigate.

Beltane · #11 07/11/08, 02:14 PM

I would take the note from your doctor and explain the situation to the town. I'm sure some kind of an agreement can be reached. (The 'pet' thing mentioned above sounds good!)

I was on the planning board in town for a couple of years and DH is currently on the zoning board - I don't think we're THAT unreasonable.

Windy in Kansas · #12 07/11/08, 02:20 PM

Legality? When the councilman leaves his walking route to check on the sound of goats does he once again become an agent of/for the city? If that is the case he may very well be allowed onto your property.

IS a councilman or councilwoman considered to be an agent of your city? Don't know how it is where you live.

bumpus · #13 07/11/08, 02:22 PM

.

You want a city council member to get in trouble for check out or come onto your property. So you can continue to break the clear law that you know about being against the law.

Start trouble with the council member and your goats will be gone for sure.

You do not have to have a heard of goats for one person. One goat or two at the most will supply enough milk for one person.

Do you have a NO TRESPASSING sign posted your yard.
If you don't then the council member would probably not get into trouble anyway.

If you did have a sign the council member could get a search warrant and the goats will go bye bye and you will likely get fined.

Many fire departments will not come on private property with no trespassing signs and insurance sometimes will not pay either if this happens.

Better check first before signs ! ! !

bumpus
.

GoddessKristie · #14 07/11/08, 02:33 PM

The reason we have not attempted to get a variance is that we spoke to our neighbors who didn't mind and completely understood our situation. What we gleaned from then and from walking arround town is that the city has an attitude of live and let live. There are other people in town who have illegal animals that make more noise than our goats. We talked with some of them and one in particular has had her turkeys (loud!) for ten years.
As for what he may hear, my question is that if he hears something and knows it's not a dog or cat and actually walks back and sees that they are goats, is there anything I can do.
Sounds like so far everyone thinks there's not much I can do in that situation. We do have a proposal prepared and some information from a legislative assistant in Seattle regarding their legalizing that happened last year. I just want to be as prepared as possible if something like that does happen.
We did decide that applying for a variance was not something we wanted to do in advance. I'll have another talk with my husband about that and see what he's thinking now (3 months in).

Thanks for all the honest responses. I'm not trying to start any trouble, but wanted to know the full story if that situation happened.

seedspreader · #15 07/11/08, 02:56 PM

No sense worrying about it. From what I get, you just got the goats... in the worst case, if you had to get rid of them, then you go back to where you were before. I also see you have an acre of land. I would suggest that you spend a lot of time putting together a presentation for your community. I would suggest you include good sources in the presentation (not whacky fringe source) showing first the health benefit for your son using the goat milk, then branch into the economics of it, and then into the sustainability/local/homegrown food movement ant the general trend nationwide. Reassure that these aren't for butchering (that makes folks qweezy in the city) and then get interviews on tape, or written letters from your neighbors that it doesn't bother them a bit and that these are small animals that many people keep as pets. The more neighbors on your side, the better your chances. Those councilmen/women are voted in by those neighbors and if your neighbors sympathize with you, it would be in the council's best interest to allow you to keep them.

Besides all that time preparing for the presentation and talking to your neighbors will be more beneficial than worrying about it.

RichieC · #16 07/11/08, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary in ohio

Walking onto your property may not be trespassing. Trespassing happens when someone has knowledge that they are not permitted on your land. If you have no signs, no fences or structures to notify me then I am not trespassing. If your land is mark, you have a fence or you verbal tell me to stay off or get off and and stay then I am trespassing. Land rights vary by state but in general walking on your land is not trespassing.l If that was the case when anyone enter your property it would be trespassing.

.

Thank you for posting this. It is amazing the number of people on this board who are incapable of understanding the simple facts you list above.

My experience with people who get very worked up about tresspassing is that they are the same people who don't bother to comply with their state's laws on posting.

Windy in Kansas · #17 07/11/08, 03:18 PM

Remember the best defense is a good offense.

I would suggest that you post haste attempt to get a variance. Should you get caught with your law breaking the gathering of information you have will only sound like an excuse not a preparing to ask for a variance.

As to others also breaking the law or your neighbor not caring, doesn't matter, you are still in violation no matter the reason why.

Soy milk substitute?

Wisconsin Ann · #18 07/11/08, 03:21 PM

Couple of thoughts on this.

obviously, my first thought is you're doing something illegal and you know it. that's....not good. teaching your son that you can do something that is against the law if it's going to help you save money. hmmm. Do you want him growing up thinking that the law is there for everyone but him?

that aside. Dwarf goats can easily become "pets" under the law...IF you go to your council and talk about it. or you're prepared, as Seedspreader suggested. Put everything into a folder, get it copied.

Kind of sounds to me like your councilman probably already KNOWS about the goats. hard to keep that kind of thing secret in a small town.

you have an acre of land. plenty for the 'pets' to run on. You have a special need. You have a tolerant town. make it legal.

my 2cents worth.

Gary in ohio · #19 07/11/08, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windy in Kansas

Remember the best defense is a good offense.

I would suggest that you post haste attempt to get a variance.

Thats a BAD idea!!!!!! It brings a non-issue to light and they will be required to act on it. Saying no is easier than going through all the work to say yes.

if no one is complaining its NOT an issue. If if would ever become an issue deal with it then. Utill that time dont worry about it. Your reasons for having the goat today will be the same as in the future. If you apply for a variance today you may loose today, If you apply for 2 years from now you may loose but you got 2 years of use. By that time your DS may have grown out of the alergy.

RiverPines · #20 07/11/08, 03:36 PM

Your breaking the law but yet don't like this city counsel member trespassing? Is it because your afraid he will do something about your illegal activity?

As for the pet thing..not in my opinion. Your milking these goats. Pets are not milked. These animals are livestock. Heck ask the ag dept of the US. Goats are livestock, even if they are kept 'like' a pet.

As for the milk allergy...first try to prove the child has to have milk to live a healthy life. There are many source for the same nutrients in milk that you can obtain through various other foods.