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  #1  
Old 04/29/08, 10:04 AM
Minelson's Avatar  
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Amine 400 2 4D Weed Killer

Our pasture was sprayed with this last night. I called the company that makes it to ask when it would be safe to let the horses/goats/cats back out and he said as soon as it dries...I still feel uncomfortable...anyone else have experience with this product?
Thanks!

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  #2  
Old 04/29/08, 10:57 AM
 
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read at end of page two and beginning of page three
http://www.pbigordon.com/pdfs/Amine400-SL.pdf

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  #3  
Old 04/29/08, 11:00 AM
 
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Many people are uncomfortable with any spray at all; many don't bother looking at the label to follow the rules.

Sounds like you are doing it about right, checking & following the label. If you want to wait a few days, that is cool, won't hurt any. Might get better weed control if they can let the the herbicide work a bit.

--->Paul

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  #4  
Old 04/29/08, 01:30 PM
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Never.

I mistakenly assumed that that poison had been banned... I guess not. I wouldn't put my animals on it for any reason, if I ever thought about using their meat meat or milk... or if I actually cared for the animal.

Curious... did ya'll have some otherworldy blob monster that needed destroying?

I've finally got the power company convinced they'd best not spray my pastures with any thing. Of course, it took some risky behavior on my part to get them to see the light... (threatening to shoot down their helicopter that pilot told me he'd never fly over my place again...) The company denied spraying... till I called the FAA to track down the tail #s... They finally admitted their contractor was making up time on the weekends... A company rep came out with some of the poison with a label showing me it was safe. Yeppers, the label said it was safe. I took the sample bottle, opened it, and asked the gent to chug... for some reason, he refused... Told him they could spray to their hearts content, if he, and everyone else in the HQ would drink the stuff.

They haven't been back.

The chlorinated hydrocarbons "may" breakdown over a period of days... but I doubt if they dissipate from body tissues.

Sorry to sound harsh.... I hope it kilt' what you needed killing. Just be extra careful, especially if you have children or you're of childbearing age. Nothings worth getting cancer over...

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  #5  
Old 04/29/08, 02:26 PM
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The otherworldy blob monster is Canadian Thistle. Thank you for giving me a new description of it

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  #6  
Old 04/29/08, 04:22 PM
 
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I swear texican, you just became my new hero.

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  #7  
Old 04/29/08, 05:04 PM
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On page 3, I don't see where is says wait awhile, or wait a week or something like that. It says Don't. Period. Don't allow them to graze, don't feed them with treated forage. This stuff is nasty.

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  #8  
Old 04/29/08, 05:14 PM
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One thing I never understand about these toxic chemicals, they always say not to contaminate water with it, but if you use it outside, it's going to get in the water. If it's on the ground, it's in the water.

I think I'd rather have the thistles. I've found soil improvement reduces weeds drastically.

When we bought this place, the realtor, without our knowledge or consent, sent somebody over to spray herbicide all over the fields near the house, so they wouldn't have to mow it.

Before they sprayed, there was mostly grass and lamb's quarters. After they sprayed, and for the next 4 years, there was mostly jimson weed, thistle and ragweed. Now, after many years of care and no herbicides, it's returning to normal vegetation. Most of the thistles, jimson, and ragweed are gone. We have a nice mix of grasses, chickweed, lamb's quarters, mint, ground ivy, and smaller amounts of various other plants. Except my garden, which has more than its share of spiny amaranth, (not to be confused with the kind of amaranth you might grow on purpose to eat) but even that won't get me to use herbicides. They are absolutely forbidden on my property.

Texican is right, nothing I can grow is worth getting cancer for, or causing somebody else to get cancer.

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Last edited by dancingbear; 04/29/08 at 05:16 PM.
  #9  
Old 04/29/08, 05:16 PM
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This stuff will sterilize your grandchildren. It will kill everything it touches I think. I know you can not buy it in large (5 gal) quantities unless you have a license for using it. Be safe and don not feed your animals on this pasture.

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  #10  
Old 04/29/08, 06:51 PM
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24D and 245T were the main ingredients in Ajent Orange used in Vietnam. It was new then. Most producers had a byproduct contaminatiion of dioxin. Toxic stuff. Now days, there's no dioxin and both chemicals are widely available and widely used. Would take a lot to do you any harm. But rather than rely on science, you can keep the horses out of the area until the next big rain.

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  #11  
Old 04/29/08, 08:47 PM
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Thank you all for the information....

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  #12  
Old 04/29/08, 11:56 PM
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For those who chose not to read the link that agmantoo posted and just base their statements on non factual judgments, they would have found this:

Rangelands, Pasture, and Turf - Observe the following intervals:

7 day grazing interval after treatment for dairy cattle
30 day preharvest interval for grass cut for hay, and
a preslaughter interval for meat animals of 3 days......

Also, as haypoint mentioned, 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T was used during Vietnam as Agent Orange. This is where many folks gather there uninformed decisions from. 2,4,5-T itself is of only moderate toxicity, with oral LD50 of 389 mg/kg in mice and 500 mg/kg in rats. However, the manufacturing process for 2,4,5-T contaminates this chemical with trace amounts of 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin (TCDD).

It is this dioxin that caused so much trouble in regards to the affect it had on humans. Even back then, 2,4-D was not the cause of such troubles. 2,4-D is not carcenogenic, and that has been studied by a variety of agencies.

Also, in response to Big Dave's comment, 2,4-D will not sterilize your grandchildren, nor will it kill everything it touches, nor do you need a special license to buy it. 2,4-D is a selective herbicide, meaning it won't kill everything. It is a selective broadleaf herbicide that is safe to use on your lawn. Which is what many use 2,4-D amine for.

Anyways, here is some food for thought for everyone who thinks all chemicals cause cancer, sterilize people, etc...

(These statement are all taken from www.24d.org)

2,4-D is less toxic than caffeine and slightly more toxic than aspirin.
2,4-D does not cause birth defects
2,4-D does not cause genetic damage
Chronic effects are limited to long term exposure at high doses (meaning yes, if you drink a lot of it over a long period of time, or decide to pour a lot in your eyes, etc...) which we all know no one would ever do..

So, I would follow the labels directions for grazing intervals, once those are over, then feel free to let your animals back out. And if you are still concerned, then like someone else already stated, wait until a good soaking rain, and then proceed...

Well, I wasn't trying to step on anyone's toes here, just trying to correct some wrong information. But, in the end, everyone has a choice to do whatever they feel is safe/right.

Take care..

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  #13  
Old 04/30/08, 11:34 AM
 
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Good grief, are you going to take the word of the MANUFACTURER? Or someone who works for the manufacturer of this poison? Do we EVER know whom to trust? As, I believe, Mark Twain said, "There's lies, d---ed lies, and statistics."

Having been through this chemical poison bit a couple of years ago, it is sickening (literally) to have someone spray near your land. I have no sympathy for chemical farmers who are brainwashed into killing, mindlessly killing anything and everything that Big Ag tells them to. It seems today's chemical "farmers" spread death and destruction endlessly so they won't have to "work" so "hard".

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  #14  
Old 04/30/08, 12:16 PM
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Minelson...

didn't mean to sound so mean earlier...

(but it is some bad stuff)

On thistles, I'm not familiar with Canadian thistles, but we have 'regular?' thistles hereabouts. My neighbor gets medieval each year with thistles... but he's 'chemical shy' hates poisons, so, they all go out with machetes and walk the areas with thistles, (over 300 acres) and chop em by hand. A Sisyphean task, as they always come back... and the fact that they can't chop thistles on all the neighbors places.

So, if ya'll kill all of your thistles, do the neighbors do likewise on theirs? On a windy day, thistle down can travel forever on the winds...

Most folks around here, if breaking ground for crops, after a few years rest, will burn the ground, to get rid of weeds... firebreak the perimeter first...

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  #15  
Old 04/30/08, 12:48 PM
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Orangehen, no I'm not taking the word of the manufacturer, I'm taking the word of various manufacturers, MSDS labels, etc.. In order for chemicals and there labels to be registered, they undergo years of testing,data, checks and balances, etc.. before they can be brought to the market. And especially with 2,4-D which has been out for 60 years, the number of tests done on it is outstanding.

So you are saying that all chemicals are "poison"? And you feel that farmers only use chemicals because "Big Ag" tells them too? Well, from being around farming all my life, I can tell you farmers don't simply use chemicals because that's what they are told to do. They do it, because without, there would be no use even farming. Chemicals are what allow farmers to actually have a crops that last a growing season, aren't taken by weeds, and they can actually make a living by growing. How many farmers have you met that have any diseases that can be related to their chemical usage?? My grandfather farmed for 65 years, has been around plenty of chemicals, yet he didn't have any problems related to the chemicals.

Then you made this statement: "It seems today's chemical "farmers" spread death and destruction endlessly so they won't have to "work" so "hard".
I know plenty of people that this statement would offend, and I'm one of them. As I stated previously, chemicals aren't used so people don't have to "work so hard", there used so we can produce enough crops to sustain our way of life. And, have you ever been around or worked on a farm? If not, I can tell you taking care of 2,000 acres throughout the year would not be considered "not working hard"!

I would like to hear your input though regarding what/how things should be done without chemicals. Since you are obviously against all of them, how would you recommend farmers take care of their crops?? Do you really believe that if the world of agriculture stopped using chemicals today, that the world would survive?

A good experiment would be for you to raise, say 5 acres of corn. Keep track of all your time, money, labor, costs, etc.... Then harvest said 5 acres and do a yield check. THen you could take all of your figures and say figure out what it all would equate to if you had, say 500 acres. Then 1,000, 1,500, so on...Then let me know if you still feel the same way about chemicals..

Food for thought: If no chemicals were used -
yields would plummet
would lead to food shortages
wouldn't be able to feed as many animals
cost would dramatically increase for farmers/livestock owners
these costs would then increase food prices,clothing, etc...
many jobs would be lost
the list could go on..

In a quick search, I found a study that was done in 1996. So the following figures are 12 years old, meaning the number today would be substantially higher:
Study concluded that if 2,4-D were no longer available, the costs to growers and other users in terms of higher weed control expenses, and to consumers, in the terms of higher food and fiber prices, would total $1.6 billion annually in the US alone...

Now image what the impact would be if we stopped using chemicals completely...

I understand people have a fear of chemicals, and anyone can choose to have whatever view they want. However, we all must be realistic and take into consideration what these chemicals that we fear have actually done for us. In this case, 2,4-D alone, has had a huge positive impact on our nation and world. I can't imagine where we would be without these and other chemicals..

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  #16  
Old 04/30/08, 01:14 PM
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Texican, no you didn't sound mean at all. The Canadian Thistles are considered "noxious" plants here so if a landowner looses control of them they get a fine. We have burned, we have cut. Actually last year when I cut we got some really heavy humid days afterwards and they molded and one of my horses ended up getting sick. We are completely surrounded by cropland which is "sprayed" by huge monster tractors and also by airplane and helicopters. Our property is also right next to high wire so I figure we are probably dead already. I don't like harsh chemicals and will go natural when I can and when it's effective. I really appreciate the help and opinions from the folks on this forum, so thank you for sharing yours

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  #17  
Old 04/30/08, 03:26 PM
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To put it into perspective for a small homestead I'll explain what we do. As much as possible we use organic pesticides and manual removal for our garden. We mix our own fertilizer from organic components. If something needs a foliar fertilizer we use Miracle Gro as it is free of heavy metal contamination. And of course everthing gets mucked from the cows, goats, rabbits and poultry. We use electric netting to fence in our poultry. To keep the netting operating properly once each year (in the spring) I spray the entire length of the netting with a combination of Roundup and Crossbow. We spray only when we've got a couple of dry days to ensure there is no runoff. What isn't absorbed by the plants breaksdown very quickly.
The trick to using chemicals is to do your homework, follow directions, use as little as possible as seldom as possible. Modern farming does suffer from a chemical dependency and every effort needs to be made to wean it away from chemicals without unduly sacrificing production. It won't be easy, I'd hate to have to mow the netting perimeter since that would increase the pollution from the mower, increase the amount of labor to raise my poultry, and eat up a whole bunch of time that could be spent elsewhere.
Life is full of choices, isn't it?

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  #18  
Old 04/30/08, 06:11 PM
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We use it on occasion. I don't think it works too well, and I argue against it. When we do use it, we keep the stock off of it for 2 weeks.

Don

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  #19  
Old 04/30/08, 08:07 PM
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Dioxin Buck eye is managed in this state with need of a permit. Small quantities mat be bought without it. DIOXIN is what was in the oil to keep the dust in the roads down at TIMES BEACH MO. Where is Times beach? It DOES NOT EXIST ANY MORE. The government (ours) bought out the entire community and closed the exit off the hyway. As for sterilization. That is just a way of saying it is very dangerous stuff. I worked at Times Beach after a big flood and I tell you it is creepy to see government people walking the streets you are on in moon suits while you are in cut off's and flip flops. There was a lot of animals that dyed and people that were sick and getting that way. I do not want a fight with anyone I am just stating my experiences with this stuff.

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  #20  
Old 04/30/08, 09:58 PM
 
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buckeye farms,

Have you ever read Acres USA magazine? It explains, very well, how organic agricultural can and does work. If you are open to other perspectives you might consider ordering a sample copy.

Synthetic chemicals do not nurture the life of the soil. I am always suspicious of anything with the suffix "cide" in it. As in herbicide, pesticide, homicide, suicide.......

Even if a chemical is deemed "safe" by the powers that be, it does not mean that it is.
One does not have to look very far in history to see examples of chemicals that were declared to be non-toxic and yet wound up doing untold harm.

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