livestock or pet - where is the line drawn for you?

[cathleenc]

I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between 'treating your livestock like livestock' or 'making a pet out of them'. Can you tell me how and where you draw the line/differentiate?

For example, I have a very very gentle border leicester ram. I will give him a few tiny nibbles of corn maybe 2-3x a week and will scratch his head almost every day. Some people call that making a pet out of him - other suggest doing the exact same thing to livestock to get them used to being around the owners.

When it comes to safety, the 'don't make your livestock into pets' advice gets used repeatedly. I want to be safe. I really want to be safe. I have two small children. I need to be safe.

I like my animals, talk to them, like to touch them, like them to respond to me. Much of my satisfaction of having animals comes from working with them and being affectionate with them. Appreciating their sounds, smells, behaviors. Adoring their babies. Does that mean I am making them into pets?

Looking forward to learning how you interpret the 'livestock not pets' advice and how you implement it in your own barn.

thanks
Cathy

[veme]

How old is your ram? Under 3 years old?
It's a real bad idea to be scratching his head.
You are setting yourself up for a possible problem. Might want to ask some questions about people who have been knocked down & battered by "pet rams". It usually comes "out of the blue" and when your back is turned.
Sorry.

I treat all my animals - livestock & "pets" - with loving concern & kindness, but I never let an intact male get overly familiar or lose respect for me.
Many of my livestock animals are pets.

In fact some of my favorite pets have been sheep or pigs.

All intact male farm animals need to be respected for what they are and they need to respect you for who you are.
Even the most gentle boar, bull, ram or rooster can hurt you or your children unexpectedly and not just during breeding season.

Now female animals are a different matter.
But even then, an overly friendly 700 lb. heifer can hurt you if you're not careful.
They are still animals.

[kabri]

I Highly agree with Veme! We also had a very sweet ram (cheviot). At about 3 or 4 years of age, after a couple of breeding seasons, he decided ramming was fun and it took us a long time, smacking him in the face every time we went into the sheep stall to feed, before he figured out it was not ok to ram us.

That being said, we have a tom turkey who is now 5 (I think!) who is still the absolute sweetest bird, male or female we've every had. He remains very tame with people, but we are careful not to let our dogs loose with him as he hate dogs and will try to attack them with spurs/beak, etc.

Our older ewes, who have given us many years of healthy lambs eventually become pets. This really helps at lambing time if they need assistance. I had to pull a huge lamb this spring from a 13 year old ewe - she actually seemed grateful for the help. I've done it a few times with young, stupid ewes who were not "pets" and it's taken 2 people to get the job done.

Our gelding cannot be trusted, possibly he was gelded late, but is extremely aggressive with dogs/sheep/chickens/turkeys etc and has bitten both DH and I. Mare has kicked sheep before, but it was during a thunderstorm and they were all a bit panicked. Mare has never kicked or bitten us or any other animal except the gelding. I would say our mare is a pet, the gelding is a tool to take my husband out into the backcountry since that horse is so sure footed and experienced at that and is relatively safe (I don't think any horse is 100% safe, especially on trails!)

Our single rooster took a few years, but now tries to spur and has spent some time dangling upside down from my hand. I think he's finally getting the message. We've only had 1 rooster in 5 years of keeping chickens that never became aggressive with people.

We've not raised cattle or goats yet, but I would bet the trend is the same with male vs female with those as well.

Be careful with your ram, and please don't turn your back on him!!!

[wilded]

You have to leave pets in the freezer until you forget their names.

[noname]

For me, the difference is not in how gentle/dangerous they are (although the dangerous ones aren't likely to become pets), but in what I'm willing to do for them.

Pets don't have to earn their keep. They contribute simply by the pleasure I get from their company. This is the horse that doesn't get put down or sold when he's outlived his career, the hen that stays even though she's not laying anymore, the old dog who lives out his senior years in front of the woodstove. Doesn't matter how much it costs to feed them, they're staying.

Livestock, on the other hand, need to perform their intended function or they're out of here. The goat who doesn't milk well goes to the butcher or gets sold as a pet to someone else. The hens who don't lay go into the stew pot. The pony the kids outgrew gets sold to another child. You look harder at what you're getting in return for the feed they're consuming, and if the balance swings the wrong way, they go.

[Otter]

I'm with noname.

Most of the "livestock not pets" people I've met used it as an excuse to be pretty harsh to their animals. Not saying that all do, but it left a bad taste in my mouth. I think for a small holder/homesteader, it's important for us to know our animals. I have worked at dairies and I think it saves time in the long run to have animals that are easy to handle even in a big operation.

I've kept animals who's ultimate destination was freezer camp, but I still like them easy to handle. They know me and trust me and I know them. So I handle them and treat them kindly and they have to be respectful of me. It's not the same as making them pets.

[rootsandwings]

The cat got in a fight with a possum. I spent $80 at the vet. he's a pet.

The chickens are livestock. they have names, they are fun, and I am very fond of them. but if one of them has an $80 injury - it is going to die. If it is likely to suffer first - I will kill it myself. and probably cry. but I won't spend $80 on a chicken worth only a fraction of that financially. for me, that's the difference.

[bumpus]

.
I have no pets. I like livestock.

bumpus
.

[soulsurvivor]

It was an issue with me when I was growing up on the farm too - why did my pets get put down. I never did like the answer, but I had to eat to live. I recall one time my younger brother had a runt pet pig. We'd brought the piglets inside our house to put them under a heat lamp cause the weather was so cold that year. We didn't have electric in the barn, so the piglets got to stay a few days with us. When it came time for them to be returned to the barn lot, my brother grabbed his "pet" and took crying out the door. He stayed missing a really long time and we got worried. So we started trying to find him. Finally, after about a half day, we found my brother and his "pet pig" sitting in the top of the maple tree out back. My brother was about 4 years old at the time. Daddy had to go get his ladder to get him and the pig down, not because my brother couldn't get down, but because he kept crying and yelling that "nobody's going to take my baby". I swear I still see that little boy everytime I look at my brother since it's a good memory from the 50s.

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by noname

For me, the difference is not in how gentle/dangerous they are (although the dangerous ones aren't likely to become pets), but in what I'm willing to do for them.

Pets don't have to earn their keep. They contribute simply by the pleasure I get from their company. This is the horse that doesn't get put down or sold when he's outlived his career, the hen that stays even though she's not laying anymore, the old dog who lives out his senior years in front of the woodstove. Doesn't matter how much it costs to feed them, they're staying.

Livestock, on the other hand, need to perform their intended function or they're out of here. The goat who doesn't milk well goes to the butcher or gets sold as a pet to someone else. The hens who don't lay go into the stew pot. The pony the kids outgrew gets sold to another child. You look harder at what you're getting in return for the feed they're consuming, and if the balance swings the wrong way, they go.

Ditto. By this criteria I suppose my dogs are pets, since I'll spend money on vet bills for them that I really can't afford to spend. The barn cats are livestock, even though they are friendly and eat in the house, and we enjoy their company, because I wouldn't spend much on the vet for them. The goats and chickens I doctor myself unless it's absolutely necessary to go to the vet, and then my pocketbook has to be taken into consideration. If it's something I can't deal with and can't afford a vet bill for, the animal will get put down.

But I 'pet' all my animals, even the smelly buck. I care about them --but they aren't people.

Kathleen

[tamsam]

The wife made pets out of our 2 goats that are withered. When they are out when we are they follow us around like dogs. They are our 4 legged weed eaters as that is the only way to cut our grass is with a weed eater as it is all bank and hill side. Before we got them we were having to get it cut at least once a month and some times more. Now we can get by with just trimming the beside the drive and doing the rest only about twice a summer. The boys do a good job and with them being pets we can just let them loose and when the go to far from the house one call and they come running. We have a yard full of rabbits that are pets because I like to sit and watch them and they will sit up and beg for a piece of bread. We have 4 exotic 4 legged kids that live in the house and they give more love than we can give them. Sam

[Quint]

My livestocks end up as pets of a sort I guess. They usually end up named and such. I don't blink an eye when it comes to killing one and turning it into food nor do I get all worked up that I'm eating "nora" or "pete". If it's time to make some edibles then "nora" gets it and I don't lose a wink of sleep over it.

[stranger]

Like Veme said, you may find that pet standing on your chest some day.

[michiganfarmer]

Mabey Im lucky. I dont have to deal with any of the emotional attacment because I have no interest in being friends with any farm animals

[Maura]

Since we are stewards of the Earth, I believe that any animals on my place should be well taken care of. They are not treated harshly and I keep an out to make sure they are doing well. My sheep all trust me to the point they will ask for assistance during labor. They gather around me when I bring out a bale of hay (actually they gather round the hay and don't worry about me).

I'll put any of them into the freezer, except the two original ewes who eat out of my hand and are being sold to a neighbor who will treat them the same way. They are part of a spinners flock but have lousy fleece, the rest of the sheep are their progeny with lovely fleece. I guess that makes them pets.

I would also caution about scratching or petting the top of a ram's head. Rub him under the chin. If nothing else, it keeps his head up so he can't ram you. Never turn your back on him, and never bend over when you are near him. When you bend over he thinks you are challenging him because rams lower their heads when they ram.

[chickenista]

I guess I have one pet... a 15 year old cat.
The dogs have a job and that is to bark at people and chase off other dogs and coons and such..and they must also play with the child.
The chickens are for $, eggs and food and bug control..
the pigs will be for tilling the earth and freezer decoration
the rabbits are for poop and food
I am short a mouser however.. I need a barn cat to eat the mice and the wild bunnies that have taken up lodging there..

[mary,tx]

I guess for me, livestock are useful animals. I name them, talk to them, try to take good care of them. But I don't feel bad about them fulfilling their intended purposes. I have felt sad when a favorite hen was killed, but normally it's not a really big deal, just part of life.

The dog is a pet because she's not terribly useful; we just like her. She doesn't even bark consistently when someone comes up the driveway. She thinks the UPS man is part of the family.

I don't agree with people, though, who consider their pets like children. Once when I was pregnant, I dreamed I had a puppy. It was quite a disappointment. lol. No one gives birth to their pets. They are animals, not children. And though I take good care of my dog, I'm not sure I'd spend the big bucks on her any more than the livestock. I expect if she broke a leg, I could splint it just as well as I could the goat's.

I agree with others who mentioned that you should be especially careful how you handle intact male animals. I would think it best if you not let your children in the same field with the ram. I am very careful about letting my DD in the same field as the bucks. If they need hands on care, I do it myself.

mary

[Kevingr]

I tell my kids if you name it, it's a pet, if it doesn't have a name, it's food. When we get a new batch of chickens they always ask, "are these the kind we name, or the kind we eat?". Egg layers can be named, but meat birds can't.

They are all treated the same, get fresh water, good food and a place to stay. Any that prove to be dangerous, including pets, are dispatched humanely.

[Mare Owner]

Livestock have to earn their keep, pets are here for enjoyment.

You have to be careful handling any animal, be they livestock or pet, according to what is appropriate for it. Our oldest stallion will stay as and become officially a "pet" once he doesn't settle any more mares, but that doesn't mean we'll become lax in how we handle him; he'll still be a stallion.

[foxfire51]

Our kids always knew that the cute little calf they were helping to feed would grow into a beef steer for the freezer. We did name them all, however. Let's see, I remember Stewy, T-Bone, Chuck, Ribeye.....

All the best,
FF51