air in the water? please help with our water problem.

xix · #1 03/10/08, 11:22 AM

Maybe someone can help pin down this problem. We're living in an older home (built 1870s) on a well systems (newer well, 2001, think it's 250'). Anyways, this is actually more of a seasonal problem and looks like the break we've had for the past few months is gone.

When using the sinks, washer, or flushing the john, we occasionally get loud spurting and chugging water. It's not consistent other than the fact that it didn't happen at all when the weather stayed very cold (30-40ss or so) for the past months and it does it frequently when the weather is warmer (which we had last week).

So, I've tried doing all the various things to drain air out of the system including draining the pressure tank as well. That hasn't solved the problem.

DH wants to add on some air release valve type thing somewhere on the system to hopefully solve it -- but I'd love for someone to tell me what the problem is for sure, if they know.

We're still new to the joys of home ownership and well living too and can fix anything -- we can fix it even better when we know what we're fixing. Anyone got some suggestions or ideas about what could be causing it and possible solutions?

another possibly related note - occasionally during this time of year, our well pump will also kick itself off. for the switch (which is new) the on and off pressure rates are all set right and usually it works great, but also in the warmer weather (perhaps coincidence) it lets the pressure drop to zero and I have to go switch it on by hand. This never seems to happen while we're using the water, such as a shower/washing dishes or anything, we'll just go to turn on a faucet and find we have no water and will have to go turn the switch on. Not sure if thats related or not -- I find this problem far less annoying that the very loud spurting of the faucets and toilet.

VALENT · #2 03/10/08, 02:10 PM

does the spurting happen after the well is shutting itself off and you turn it back on?

xix · #3 03/10/08, 02:25 PM

nope, the spurting and well shutting off aren't related. The well will shut off maybe once a week when it's really warm, less often otherwise. The sputtering is several times a day if the weather is warm -- not at all when it's cold.

It seems that surely the weather isn't related, but it's a strange coincidence if it isn't.

VALENT · #4 03/10/08, 02:36 PM

Your husband's air release valve is probably the fix. But it will depend on what is really causing the problem. Somehow, your pump is pumping air into the tank. If your tank is a bladderless(galvanized), it probably has this valve already. You may be able to clean it or have to replace it. By the way, in the no bladder system, pumping air into the tank with each well cycle is part of the system. The valve is the other half of the system which keeps the correct amount of air in the tank.

fishhead · #5 03/10/08, 03:38 PM

It sounds like it's pulling air into the line before the pump to me. Is it possible the well is running dry? Or maybe a loose joint on the intake side of the pump?

morrowsmowers · #6 03/10/08, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xix

nope, the spurting and well shutting off aren't related. The well will shut off maybe once a week when it's really warm, less often otherwise. The sputtering is several times a day if the weather is warm -- not at all when it's cold.

It seems that surely the weather isn't related, but it's a strange coincidence if it isn't.

Seems like you have a problem at the pump end of your system if it is running constantly all week long. Start looking at things at that end and work your way inside.

Ken in Glassboro, NJ

agmantoo · #7 03/10/08, 06:29 PM

You have not provided enough info. Is this a 6 inch well? If so, how deep is the pump set? Do you have a bladder tank? What is the recharge rate of the well? With the house and other points of water delivery valved off, will the pump shut off within a few minutes? If the pump will shutoff with the points of used valved off, does the pump turn back on within a few minutes? Hold off in buying an air release valve for now.

Micahn · #8 03/10/08, 08:39 PM

This is a simple problem with maybe a not so simple fix.
The simple part if your sucking air some place. This will result in the problems your having with air in the lines and the pump not shutting off like it should.
The good news is it sounds like it is a small enough leak that your pump is not loosing prime. If that happened you would be having to re prime it chances are every time you needed water or the pump would just burn out.

Some have asked these questions above but lets cover them again.
What type of pump do you have ? Is it down in the well or is it above ground ?
If it is above ground then you need to trace the line inspecting every joint looking for your leak. Some soapy water in a spray bottle works good for that. Remember even the well itself could be the problem but that is rare and would be a lot more work.
If your pump is down inside your well it may be just touching the water and is sucking some air in when it runs. To fix that try lowering the pump down a little just a couple of inches can make a big difference.

The air release valve you talked about will fix the problem however may lead to bigger problems down the road. It is like sticking some gum on the leaking dike, May stop the leak for a short time but latter on things will get bad.

xix · #9 03/10/08, 08:43 PM

Thanks for all the feedback so far!

We have been thinking that it might be an issue with the pump or on that side of things, but thats submersed in the well which is all closed and sealed. I don't image us opening it up anytime soon.

We've wondered if it was a well going dry issue, especially in the drought last year, but this started this week and we've had plenty of rain and such and even in the summer the well never had a problem keeping up with usage, including when we had it tested as well. And we know that we are one of the last houses to have well dryness issues, everyone else goes dry before us (if that's relevant).

agmantoo - I'll try to answer your extra questions best possible, but this is also something very new to us and I'm sure I'm may miss the gist or terms in some questions.

- I mentioned it's a 250' well, but actually is 300' (looking at the docs now)
- the pump column length is 200 ft, but nothing tells me how deep it's set, I'm guessing within 40' because thats the depth of the main casing, but thats a total guess.
- We do have a bladder tank -it's like 3ft tall, don't know capacity, and I have verified that it's air pressure is set properly.
- no clue as to the well recharge rate, don't know where I'd find that.

Now, your pump questions have me a little stumped, so I'll do my best. I only have access to the switch, the pump is in the well. The switch and the bladder tank are actually on the well side of the shut off valve for the water to the house -- so it doesn't affect it at all if I shut off the water at all -- it stays pressurized and the switch keeps working. (not suggesting this is right or wrong way to plumb the house, just that's what we've got)

If the switch fails to kick on when pressure is dropping, the pressure will drop to 0 and it won't ever turn itself back on. I have to restart it manually (hold the switch open/on long enough for enough pressure to build up for it to go on auto-pilot again) when that happens.

Thats the extra info I have for now, hope it helps. If not, I'll bug the hubby as he has a somewhat better understanding of the system, though we both admit we're a bit stumped by this one.

rambler · #10 03/10/08, 08:58 PM

My experiences, which may be rare & might not relate at all to your deal:

Switch: My pressure switch on one of the pupms is on a littlw 1/8 inch little pipe about 3 inches long. This thin little pipe will plug up with rust & gunk every 12-15 years, and the switch will not 'know' what the pressure is in the rest of the plumbing. Take the tiny pipe off, clean it out or replace it, & good to go for another dozen years. Basically the pipe clogs up with crude.

Air in water: My well is 260 feet deep, in a vein of fine sand, with a screen on the bottom 5 feet to keep the sand out. The water is very hard, & has a lot of magnesium & some iron in it. Couple years ago, the well would deliver 60-80 gallons of water, & them pump a lot of air with some water. Kinda odd.

The well people said oh. Hope the acid helps...... Turns out the minerals in the water clog up the screen, and so water was only very slowly seeping intot he well. The pupm would pull out the column of water - about 70 gallons worth - and then starve for water. When not running,t he water would seep back in to the well & I would again have 70 gallons or so available.

Pull the pipe & pump, sluice it out some, pour down 30 gallons of acid, wait a day, sluice all the gunk out again put in old pipe & old pump & run for some time, pull out & put my pipe & pump back down, & I was good to go, 50 gallon a minute well again. In my state, if that didn't work, need to drill a new well.

No idea if any of this applies to your situation. Seems your pump is not getting enough water, and sucking some air. For some reason.

--->Paul

agmantoo · #11 03/10/08, 09:29 PM

xix, your responses are a little difficult for me to decipher and I know my questions were equally confusing. Rambler is right on with the pressure switch building up with crud in the 1/4 inch fitting that is on the underside of the pressure switch. I will take a guess that the pump column is the depth the pump is set. That would be about right for the depth of the well. Now we come to the serious but somewhat unclear to me portion. I realize you stated the shutoff valve is on the house side of the system. That is where it should be. I want you to do the following. Close the shutoff valve and then open a spigot in the house and verify that you get no water.
You said with the valve off, the pump and pressure switch continues to work. I need clear understanding here. The pump should build up pressure on the bladder tank and then shutoff and remain off. From your statement I think it continues to cycle on and off. Is that correct? This is very important to know. If I am unclear ask for definition.

reese · #12 03/11/08, 07:50 AM

Interesting. Nothing to add, just wanted to bump and subscribe.

xix · #13 03/11/08, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agmantoo

xix, your responses are a little difficult for me to decipher and I know my questions were equally confusing. Rambler is right on with the pressure switch building up with crud in the 1/4 inch fitting that is on the underside of the pressure switch. I will take a guess that the pump column is the depth the pump is set. That would be about right for the depth of the well. Now we come to the serious but somewhat unclear to me portion. I realize you stated the shutoff valve is on the house side of the system. That is where it should be. I want you to do the following. Close the shutoff valve and then open a spigot in the house and verify that you get no water.
You said with the valve off, the pump and pressure switch continues to work. I need clear understanding here. The pump should build up pressure on the bladder tank and then shutoff and remain off. From your statement I think it continues to cycle on and off. Is that correct? This is very important to know. If I am unclear ask for definition.

When I turn the valve off and then open a faucet, I get some water until whatever is in the line runs out. The bladder tank doesn't empty and the switch doesn't turn the well on cause the tank pressure doesn't change. I guess by continue to work, I meant the tank stays full -- the well only turns on when the pressure drops and the switch kicks it on.

The sediment under the switch thought is a good one, we go get lots and lots of sediment in our water and have to clean out our washer hoses and such a couple times a year. Right before we bought the house, the sellers installed a coarse filter on the line, but think we need something finer (or at least new) in it, but so far we've not been able to get it open to change it. I imagine that was installed prior to them treating the well (it failed one of the water tests) and the purging after treatment brought up a lot of sediment too.

HopeFarms · #14 03/11/08, 08:07 AM

Not that this applies in your particular situation, but he had a similar problem, it was the impeller. (so says my husband....I just miss my well-water. We're on county water which is like bathing, cooking, and drinking chlorine until we get that part.)

fishhead · #15 03/11/08, 08:10 AM

I ruined the thrust bearing on my 6" pump by allowing the screen to plug up. The pump would pump past the capacity of the well to keep water in the pump and then the shock of going from water to air and then back to water ruined the bearing.

It's doubtfull that a 300' well recharges from a rain the week before. In our area the deep (300') aquifer is thousands of years old.

agmantoo · #16 03/11/08, 09:09 AM

xix, your valve test to where the valve was closed and the pressure held and the pump switch did not cycle verifies that there is not a hole in the down pipe to the well pump unless there is a checkvalve between the bladder tank and the pump itself. A checkvalve at the tank area would prevent pressure drop thus holding the system is an OK status. Are you familiar with what a checkvalve looks like? If so, look around to see if you spot one. With no checkvalve near the bladder tank and the amount of air you are experiencing in the water, I would speculate that the pump is cavitating as suggested with contaminant built up in the pump itself.

VALENT · #17 03/11/08, 12:31 PM

Now that you mention a filter, I would really try to replace the filter. Has the holding tank always been a bladder tank? Or was this possibly changed out as well?

xix · #18 03/11/08, 04:48 PM

agmantoo - As far as I can tell, there is no checkvalve. There is a pressure release valve, but not seeing anything the resembles my google searching for checkvalves.

valent - I don't know about "always" but I'm sure it's been a bladder tank for as long as the new well (2001) has been there at least.

so guess thats some sediment build up or something in the well which is letting in the air --- basically a situation that feels a bit out of our hands to solve. and we'll prolly end up with the bandaid solution of an air release valve or whatever it's called to deal with the problem for now, or at least till we can chat up the well folk.

but, why is this a fair/warmer weather problem? This didn't happen at all during the cold weather or is it sheer coincidence?

again, thanks so much for all the feedback, feeling a little less in the dark about the possible problems feels much better than the shrugging looks we've exchanged so far.

stanb999 · #19 03/11/08, 05:14 PM

It is probably a tiny leak in the feed pipe down somewhere past half way. What I'd bet is happening is as the water sits in the line it slowly leeks. In the winter it's not such a problem as the water table is higher. Come the drier months.... The hole is below the level of the water so the hole is acting like a venturi and sucking air into the water. I'd bet that hole is less than 20 ft. from the pump. PITA to check or fix.

agmantoo · #20 03/11/08, 05:31 PM

Stan's post was a reminder for me to ask how long you left the shutoff valve closed and monitored if the pump cycled off and back on with the shutoff valve closed. The system should sit there non cycling for a long duration (many hours). I think the problem and the weather are coincidental. If you turn the water on in the house until the the pump kicks in then turn the water off in the house how long does the pump run until it cycles back off? You stated that some adjustment had been make to the pressure in the bladder tank. You you mind taking time to explain what you did?