Help Choose Furnace Replacement

[Peacock]

Sometimes I wonder what we were thinking when we bought this place, but we knew it was a "work in progress" a/k/a "fixer upper." Our house is a brick veneer bi-level built in 1965. We also knew at the time that the heating system was original and would need replacing in the near future. Well, it appears that the future is VERY near. In fact, it has become the present.

Our heating system is an oil-fired boiler and baseboard radiant heat system. We like it pretty well in theory; we have no complaints with the heat itself. There are adequate baseboard units, so as long as the boiler is firing properly, it heats our home just fine. Well, the lower level does get a little chilly on very cold days, but it's not unbearable. We have a fireplace in which we've put an insert, and that makes the lower level toasty warm.

Now, in theory, our current heating system could trudge on for many years to come, it's sturdy and solid enough, just needs occasional parts replacement. And cleaning. Oil is dirty and the chimney needs yearly cleaning plus the (parts I can't remember the names of) need cleaning twice per season, plus it's woefully inefficient. I'm not thrilled about having to get an oil tank filled every two months or so at $700 a pop. That is BAD.

So...what to do?

Option 1: Replace oil burner with propane system
2: Replace a/c unit with heat pump - trouble is the only duct work is in the upper level's ceiling so this will not heat the lower level at all without adding extra duct work, and I'm not sure where it would go.
3: Replace oil burner with woodburning or pellet system (I have no idea how this would work but I've been told it's possible)

Thanks in advance!

[mdharris68]

Here are some links to calculators so that you can input your local utility costs, and make a decision accordingly. Hot water base board in itself is generally cheaper to operate than a gas or oil fired furnace of the same efficiency due to the ability of the medium being heated to store the heat. i.e. water vs. air. If you could add a wood fired boiler and run it in conjunction with what you have, you could save and suppliment your heat in that way. Also, you could consider a bold move to a groundsource heatpump. They are all electric, and are about as efficient as it gets. I've added a link to the type I install. Hope this helps.


http://energyexperts.org/fuelcalc/

http://www.nppd.com/My_Home/Services...calculator.asp

http://www.hvacopcost.com/


http://hearth.com/econtent/index.php...on_calculator/

http://www.geocomfort.com/

[Ross]

If your oil burner is running that dirty then it's not set up right. If it's legal to retrofit new burners to older boilers then there are plenty of choices in oil burners. I'd suggest a Riello but any modern retention head burner will do much better. New boilers are very very efficient Biasi is about as good as they get for reasonable dollars, Veismann (sp?) is the best but awfully expensive.

[michiganfarmer]

Originally Posted by edayna

Sometim



So...what to do?

Option 1: Replace oil burner with propane system
2: Replace a/c unit with heat pump - trouble is the only duct work is in the upper level's ceiling so this will not heat the lower level at all without adding extra duct work, and I'm not sure where it would go.
3: Replace oil burner with woodburning or pellet system (I have no idea how this would work but I've been told it's possible)

Thanks in advance!

so you arent interested in installing a wood burning forced air furnace?

My dad used a Youkon made my Eagle. He heated his big 2 story farm house with 11 cord of wood. It cost him around $600 to heat all year.

Of course he had a lot of manual labor in processing all his firewood.

[Liese]

We have a heat pump that is a mid 90's vintage I think and I don't know if it was sized properly for our house but our house is 1000sf (4 rooms) and below 40f outside I don't think it's very efficient since it must run almost continuously if the thermostat is set at 65F, when the outside temps are at 20F or less it runs continuously with the setting at 60F. Based on our experience with this heat pump and looking at your location I'd strongly suggest that you speak to friends or family who have a heat pump in your area to see if it will live up to your expectations and needs. And if you want to listen to the heat pump run so much! By adding in a small Jotul stove we have significantly reduced our electric bill - former owners' was $160/month on the yearly plan, our highest winter bill has been $60. With 1-2 trees that come down in spring storms out back wood heat is an economical choice for us but we do shut up 2 rooms since we only have the one stove right now.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by edayna

I'm not thrilled about having to get an oil tank filled every two months or so at $700 a pop. That is BAD.

At $350/month for heating oil I think you need to assess the effectiveness of your insulation, even at the high price of heating oil today. I don't know what you're paying for heating oil so I can't calculate your btu consumption accurately, but I'm guessing you're paying in the neighborhood of $3.50/gallon. If you can give me your local heating oil price I can give you a better estimate. If my guess is close, you're consuming about 100 gallons/month of heating oil, or approximately 3.33 gallons/day. At 140,000 btu/gallon and 3.33 gallons per day, you consume about 467,000 btu/day of gross heat to heat your home. Assuming 80% furnace efficiency (approximately 20% of your heat is vented along with combustion gasses), your home actually requires about 374,000 btu/day to heat. That seems like a lot, but I don't know the size of your home.

A vented propane furnace system isn't going to be any less expensive to operate than a heating oil furnace. It will burn cleaner, but the fuel cost is about the same (actually propane is a little more). Yes, propane costs less per gallon, but the heating value is a lot less. Heating oil puts out about 140,000 btu/gallon, while propane only puts out about 91,000 btu/gallon. If you do the math (140/91) you'll see that it takes about 1 1/2 gallons of propane to produce the same amount of heat as 1 gallon of heating oil. The financial advantage simply isn't there. Just imagine getting a bill from the propane truck showing up every month to deliver 150 gallons of propane.

Heat pumps are not the most efficient or inexpensive way to heat a home, unless electricity happens to be unusually inexpensive in your area. Heating with a heat pump is inefficient because a heat pump is also an air conditioner. Manufacturers design heat pumps to balance efficiency between both heating and cooling tasks, but not optimized for either. Electric furnaces that heat with resistive heating strips are more efficient than heat pumps. You will gain from the fact that electric furnaces don't require a flue, because you are currently losing perhaps 20% of your heat through the venting of combustion gasses, but the cost effectiveness of going to an electric furnace will be determined by the relative cost of electricity vs heating oil. That's a straightforward calculation if we know the cost of heating oil and electricity in your area (estimate electricity usage by assuming that 1 KW/hour = 3414 btu/hour). By the estimated consumption of heating oil in the previous paragraph, you will consume about 110 KWH of electricity per day to make the required 374,000 btu of heat, which would cost about $330/month (assuming a 100% efficient electric furnace and $0.10/KWH). You need to confirm your cost for electricity and heating oil to validate those numbers, but under the foregoing assumptions you would only save about $20/month using electricity instead of heating oil.

If you have a large house in a cold climate then a pellet stove will not likely be sufficient to heat your entire home. A pellet stove could lower your heating oil bill, but you're trading the cost of heating oil with the cost of wood pellets and electricity (the blower has to run all the time, and it DOES add up). As wood stoves go, pellet stoves are very convenient. But they are pricey to buy ($1500 to $3000), the cost of wood pellets & electricity is substantial, and they only heat a limited area of your home.

If I were you I would do the following:

1) Since your heating oil furnace is still serviceable for the foreseeable future, keep it. The investment in a new central heating system will be substantial and you may not see a return on your investment for a very long time, if at all (depending on future utility costs).

2) At least in the short term, consider using space heaters to take part of the load off of your heating oil furnace with less expensive heating sources. You could start doing that immediately -- even today. That could be in the form of either portable electric heaters (like the oil-filled radiator type you can get at Walmart for $40), or a small (perhaps 20,000 btu/hour) unvented wall-mounted propane furnace (about $100 at eBay). Using one or more of that type of heater will trade heating oil cost for electric or propane cost. However, if electric or propane heat is less expensive than heating oil you will at least partially accomplish what you're considering doing, but without the investment in a new central furnace system. You could also take part of the load off of your heating oil furnace by using a pellet stove, but the investment in a pellet stove is more than I would want to pay to accomplish what you're after.

3) This spring, reassess your home's insulation. With a 1960s vintage home and $350/month heating bills I'm thinking you can do a lot better with a minor to modest investment in insulation. In your situation, I would sooner invest in insulation than a new furnace system. Consider installing double-pane windows, filling any noticeable cracks with caulk or foam, providing additional blown insulation where possible, and even replacing your siding with insulated siding.

[matt_man]

Look into getting a Central Boiler. It is an outdoor wood fired boiler. We installed one 3 yrs ago and love it. You could probably rig it up to pump the hot water into the existing baseboard heating.

In ours, the pump on the furnace pumps the hot water to a coil in the attic where the AC is. The same blower for the AC blows across the coil and heats the house as well. We installed it ourselves and it went really well. And it it pretty wood efficient. You can get a hopper to burn wood pellets too instead of cut logs and they come in many different sizes. We have the next to largest one but we were planning ahead for the future. It is a little overkill but we wanted to have a greenhouse and garage someday.

www.centralboiler.com

I noticed on the website that they have a conversion for how much fuel oil each unit will replace. For example, the one we have will replace up to 1500 gallons of fuel oil per month.

Rachel

[WisJim]

Persoanally, in your situation I would get a quality wood burning boiler (NOT an outside boiler) such as an HS Tarm or similar unit that burns efficiently. Of course we have been heating with wood for decades and were brought up with parents and grandparents who used wood heat, so wood heat is always my second choice, after passive solar.

A good boiler isn't cheap, but if wood is available reasonable, then the fuel is affordable.

[tamsam]

First get a good furnace man to check the nozzle on your furnace if you are having soot problems. I am assuming that it has a pump and sprays oil into the firebox. Years and years ago I had an oil fired furnace and for best clean fire I changed the nozzle almost every year as the orfice in them wear from the oil being sprayed through them. Used to be a 4 dollar item and easy to change. Good luck. Sam

[brownegg]

I agree with the indoor wood fired boiler. They are pricey to start with, but will pay for themselves in only a couple of years. They hold the heat long after the fire is out. Forced air wood furnaces don't have all the hot water that remains after the fire is low or out. Freedom from the oil companies is priceless. We keep the house at a toasty 76....with only a medium fire when sub-zero outside.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by brownegg

I agree with the indoor wood fired boiler. They are pricey to start with, but will pay for themselves in only a couple of years.

That's great of they have a lot of wood readily available, but I'm skeptical that enough free or cheap firewood is available in SW Ohio to heat a home. If not, it could create a worse financial situation than the existing heating oil furnace has.

[sbin]

You might want to spend a some time reading this forum.Lots of hvac professionals hang out there and offer some good advice when asked.


http://hvac-talk.com/uploadb/forumdisplay.php?f=3

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Originally Posted by Nevada

At $350/month for heating oil I think you need to assess the effectiveness of your insulation, even at the high price of heating oil today.

I second this.

[Peacock]

Thanks everyone for the advice. It's a 2500 sq foot house, and yes, I am amazed at how much we've been paying for oil. Yes, we need to add insulation.

We do have a good repair company who has been out 4x so far this year to fix various things -- transformer, nozzle, oil pump. The chimney needs to be cleaned now. How often should this need cleaning? We cleaned it last year, but maybe once a year is reasonable.

As far as the wood goes -- we bought firewood this fall for $225/cord, which is not a bad price for buying it chopped and pre-seasoned. In the short term, we have at least 5 big trees to cut down soon and will have them to burn, probably more than that because they're all Ash trees and we have that stupid bug killing them all. Which means Ash firewood, within quarantined counties, is going to be very cheap for a while.

That's not something to base a long-term decision on, though!

[Ross]

How often should an oil only chimney need cleaning? Never comes to mind quickly. An old 1960's burner will smoke and maybe they need doing every 5 or ten years but modern oil burners shouldn't smoke at all.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by edayna

Thanks everyone for the advice. It's a 2500 sq foot house, and yes, I am amazed at how much we've been paying for oil. Yes, we need to add insulation.

That's a good sized house. Considering it's a 1960s vintage home your heat leak is entirely believable.

For the time being you need to find a way to get through the winter as inexpensively as possible. I would suggest a ventless gas or kerosene heater. Those will run at 99.9% efficiency since there is no flue loss. Ventless furnaces are safe as long as you use a CO detector and don't use the heater in a confined space. An unconfined space is defined as providing no less than 50 cu ft for each 1,000 btu/hour heating capacity (adjacent spaces count as long as they aren't equipped with a door).

I would suggest that you look at the 23,000 btu/hour heater that Home Depot carries for $124, but check local for kerosene prices before you get one. If you can't get kerosene for around $4/gallon then you'll need to consider a ventless propane furnace.



You'll save a lot by augmenting your heat with a ventless heater. Venting combustion gasses is an efficiency killer. Think about it, any combustion gas that your furnace vents will need to be replaced with outside air, which may be subzero. Therefore, even if your vented combustion gasses are room temperature (which will never happen, the flue is normally too hot to touch), your heat loss would still be the difference between room temperature and the outside temperature. For that reason a 20% efficiency loss is all but unavoidable with a vented furnace.

[nomad7inwi]

Originally Posted by michiganfarmer

so you arent interested in installing a wood burning forced air furnace?

My dad used a Youkon made my Eagle. He heated his big 2 story farm house with 11 cord of wood. It cost him around $600 to heat all year.

Of course he had a lot of manual labor in processing all his firewood.

We have been in this house for just over a year, so our 2nd winter. We have a Yukon/Eagle oil/woodburner. We are really happy with the cost savings. Between the little bit of oil we have used and the wood, most of which we have not cut, (purchased or given to us) its been about $500 a winter to heat, not including electricity for the fan. When we need to replace we will most likely go with the same furnace. It does cost more. It will be about $3,000 to replace (complete install) with a oil burner, $5-6,000 to replace (complete install) with a Yukon.

[Nevada]

Originally Posted by nomad7inwi

We have been in this house for just over a year, so our 2nd winter. We have a Yukon/Eagle oil/woodburner. We are really happy with the cost savings.

I don't doubt that, but how happy would you be if you had to pay $225/cord?

[WisJim]

Use one of the on-line fuel cost comparison calculaters and see what the delivered cost of heat is. You can adjust the fuel cost for your actual cost, and the efficiency for the appliance you have.

http://www.hearth.com/econtent/index...on_calculator/

Looks to me like $225 a cord hardwood is about half the cost of $4 a gallon oil, assuming a 50% efficient wood furnace (which is low for a newer unit) and 100% efficient oil unit (and nothing is that efficient). Your final choice is going to depend on the fuel and the heating appliance that you choose.

[Beeman]

What I would do if I were you...

I would tune up the existing oil burner unit. i would then add a wood/coal fired furnace to the existing heating system so you could switch to either unit. i have seen this done and done very well with a circulated hot water system just like yours. this gives you the best heating system and then choices of how to split it and what fuel you wish to use.