USDA forest service making me nuts!

sisterpine · #1 01/27/08, 08:43 AM

As most of you know DH and I must travel 6-7 miles down mountain on a forest service road to get to a county road to get to town for work/shopping/health care etc.

This year DH promised to work at keeping the road open as long as possible- last year it closed prior to Christmas. We have the atv plow, a walk behind snowblower and the guys built a snow plow and put it on a 1945 flat bed with a tag axel???? Any how the forest service cop came up and asked dh if he has a permit and told him he could/would write him a ticket valued at 125.00.

Of course DH being the type he is got all worried etc. I had been on line at the forest service and could find no where to even ask about a plow permit since it is not commercial.

Went to the forest service office last monday and was told that there really is no such thing as a snow removal permit- apparently it falls under some type of "misc" heading (explains why i could not find info online). told me to write a letter to the acting head ranger explaining what i want, what equipment i will use, what roads i will work and what dates this will be happening.

Did that last monday and wrote an email to the guy on friday checking on progress for nervous hubby. Now the forest service ranger is telling me there is no fee , no bond etc but i MUST carry 100-300-100 liability on all equipment and must get/have a certificate of insurance stating that the USDA Forest Service is listed as an additional insured to indemnify the US gov from any claims and liabilities that may result from your plowing operations.

Called GEICO and got the proper liability insurance on the atv and old truck and dh'struck which drags the drag. GEICO supervisor said that they cannot add the part about the USDA being insured since they do not have a policy with GEICO, GEICO does not know those folks and cannot insure an entire government agency...

Now what- ??? waiting for head ranger dude to send me example so I can see what I can do. Rangerette Joslyn said she would notify the cop that a permit was/is in the works so we would not be ticketed but DH is still hesitant to clean up the drifts....

sis thinking she will go plow snow herself today! sis

palani · #2 01/27/08, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterpine

Any how the forest service cop came up and asked dh if he has a permit and told him he could/would write him a ticket valued at 125.00.

You might suggest to this guy that you will consider all offers as long as he include reasonable consideration with the offer. Personally I would think a downpayment of $500 would be adequate to cover the cost of the insurance plus the ticket.

tyusclan · #3 01/27/08, 08:52 AM

One more example of bureaucratic nonsense.

And we have people who want to give more and more control of our lives to the federal government.

I just can't understand it.

CJ · #4 01/27/08, 10:16 AM

OH heck just plow the darn road. If they write you a ticket, fight them. Seems to me it is a law that land cannot be landlocked, period. If you can't plow and they won't, you're landlocked.

sisterpine · #5 01/27/08, 10:27 AM

Still pouting up here. DH asked this morning if I would speed down the mountain and back up to see what the road looked like. I was busy finishing jewelry for a customer and told him I would go asap. Meanwhile he road a snow mobile down there and claimed the road to be inpassable! Said I should not go down, rather I should wait for a neighbor who is going down later today (has a p/u that is notoriously good in deep snow) and follow him down because at least 3 miles of the road is drifted shut (got at least 30 mph winds today up top at least. Then he asks "if I quit trying or cant get it done (opening the road) will you be angry with me". I told him I would be angry if he quit trying as that would be going back on his word. If he cannot get/keep the road open that would be another story all together. Meanwhile he has me leave a message telling the p/u neighbor they best leave early due to road conditions, dh then jumps on the ATV and heads on down the mountain. I swear sometimes I just want to put a muzzle on his panic! None of this is the end of the world. I have snowmobiles to work 6 months a year for the past 10 years...not like I dont know how! I keep trying to show him the optomistic side of things ....like maybe the road is not as bad as you feel it is right now, maybe it will clear easily. Maybe the USDA will remove their head from their tusch and realize they are being idiotic etc. LOL afraid it just may not be possible to change another humans thoughts and reactions duh!

Ernie · #6 01/27/08, 11:04 AM

I think I'd be tempted to gather up all that snow in the back of a truck and drop it in front of the door at the local forestry service office.

Your property sounds like it's located in my dream location ... inaccessible.

sisterpine · #7 01/27/08, 11:41 AM

my apologies! just re read my posts and i am being such a whiner today. did not mean to spread my frustration all over the forum. sis (who is going back to bed!)

#8 01/27/08, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJ

OH heck just plow the darn road. If they write you a ticket, fight them. Seems to me it is a law that land cannot be landlocked, period. If you can't plow and they won't, you're landlocked.

Sorry, but they can and will deny you access to your property if you have to deal with a jerk in charge. Derry Brownfield has had many people on his show over the years who have tried to fight them. The government will bury you will legal issues until you go broke or move out. I remember one guy who happened to be a pilot had to get a helicopter to get to his house because the forest service simply closed the road. He said the helicopter cost less than what he spent fighting them.

bob clark · #9 01/27/08, 11:57 AM

stay home

texican · #10 01/27/08, 12:32 PM

Sisterpine,
ya'll have lived there several years, haven't you. You say the road was closed basically around Christmas last year.

Is it a problem the road being closed? I'm sure it is, if you want to get to town besides doing the snowgo/truck shuttle thing...

I can look at this several ways...

....it'd be great to be snowed in... I love isolation... you've got lemons, make lemonade...

....it could be awful, if either person has medical issues... not being able to get
help quickly could be a life threatening issue...

....bureaucracies move slowly... If I lived at your place, and I planned on doing something (keeping the road open year round) when it hadn't been in the past, I'd've started in the springtime working with whoever's in charge, in order to get permission in place for nine months later... having worked for both nps and usfs, I can tell you, getting something done "right now" without a head's up, will surely guarantee that nothing gets done. So many levels of paperwork have to get done, lots of CYA, etc...

Just remember, you're where you're at for a reason... and I'm sure you knew about the road issues before buying... You could be in a more settled region of the country, with bright lights, drugs, gangs, drivebys, dozens of meth head neighbors, etc.

I'd see the road being closed as a blessing... I'd love to have a couple hundred acres at the end of a forest service road... only medical emergencies would make me get to town...

good luck to ya'll, wishing I was there (sorta...)

canfossi · #11 01/27/08, 02:20 PM

Sisterpine, didn't you use to park your vehicle at the end of the forest road, down at the bottom of the mountain and use the snowmobile to get to your house? Why don't you do that again? How do the rest of the people on the mountain get down the road in winter? Chris

sisterpine · #12 01/27/08, 05:28 PM

Well, just came back from taking my trailblazer down to the ranch 7 miles below. In three places I had to be pulled (high centered) through drifts by a friends P/U. DH followed on a snowmobile and we road back up on that after picking up a few groceries. Please understand...if I were retired I would have no qualms about snow mobiling down once every week or two. Fact is I am not retired...I am the only one of the 6 adults (no kinds up here yet) who is working. DH is retired, and the other two couples who are year round up here both have one person on disability and the other I guess just along for the ride. I leave for work at 0530 and get home at 1900 hrs two days a week and at 2030 hours the other two days. I also generally go to town on one of my off days for groceries, banking etc as I do not have time to do this while at work. I really enjoy getting into my prewarmed vehicle with my glass of iced tea and my peanut butter toast in the morning for the 45 minute drive to my office. I know I can snowmobile (and will be tomorrow) by myself even though it is dark both going and coming home. Not afraid or anything like that just tired of it LOL. Wanted just for one winter to be able to drive. Yup I know it is silly and yup I could sell the heaven sted and move to town, yup I could even sleep in my office if I wanted to. I guess I am feeling old and a bit lazy or something.

js2743 · #13 01/27/08, 05:54 PM

since your hubby is a wuss and wont open the road i would just tell him you are staying in town for the rest of the winter until the road is open. that might get him to grow some &@(($ and start standing up to the forest service, or he could sit home all alone.

TedH71 · #14 01/27/08, 06:20 PM

This is one of the few reasons why the Ingalls family who used to run their cattle in the West...on federal lands in which they paid rent on....the Wildlife Parks people released problem bears ON their lease and also baited several areas ON their lease for their "study" on grizzly bears. They lost hundreds of cattle and spent thousands fighting the federals. They gave up and moved out of the lease and into town losing lots of money. I think it was either Wyoming or Montana. Good luck.

gardenfay · #15 01/27/08, 07:38 PM

Well, I am sorry for your problem.

But I don't understand why you thought you could maintain a road you do not personally own.

My husband logged in sw Colorado for 18 years and most of it on forest service roads in the winter. They always had to pay the ins. you described; plus put up bonds for any damage they might do (lost gravel, knocking down fence posts, damage to cattle guards, etc. ). They also had to plow the road to the forest services standards - which had to do with plowing it so that it wouldn't erode and wash out when the spring thaw starts.

These regulations may vary in Mt to some degree; but they are designed to protect our public roads for John Q. Public - whose tax dollars built them and who, collectively own them.

Ive known of lots of cabins on forest service land and some on private land accessible only by forest service roads. It has been my experience both in MT and Co that the forest service is pretty clear about whether they maintain a road in the winter or not; so i am perplexed as to why this seems to be a shock to you.

Several have called your husband a wimp and called for him to stand up to the forest service. LOL. that is about the dumbest thing he could do. This is not some new situation to the forest service. They have dealt with this situation probably millions of times in the past and are not gonna change the rules for you folks.

So you will have to move, or park at the bottom and snowmobile down (unless they sometime later close the area to snowmobile use), or play by their rules.

Which I also sympathize with your husband on. When it snows and the wind blows like that; those drifts are hard to plow. And speaking of drifts, here in n. MT. it is supposed to start snowing again and get down to -16; so I pray it doesn't do anything like that in your neck of the woods and if it does, i hope and pray you guys have everything you need.

sisterpine · #16 01/27/08, 07:52 PM

Dear gardenfay- As to getting permission to remove snow from the road...there are many places in Montana that have citizens removing snow from forest service roads, in fact the ranger advised me he had recently issues several permissions for other folks.

I do not expect that I will maintain the road...nor will the forest service maintain it. We have gone round about this in the past. They will respond if there is a mudslide or a flood which totally washes out the road. Other than that we are on our own. They know that we fill holes and smooth the road every year. They say they will come up and try to grade what is left of the road once every 5 or so years but they also say that the road needs to be rebuilt too and we dont expect that to happen. In this area the snowmobile clubs groom the roads as well which is not so different than removing the drifts with our little plow. The forest service has no objection to giving other permission to work on their roads. We dont have to do a "spec" job and get a bond because we do not have a spec road to begin with. Right now the forest service workers , a dozen of them, are enjoying driving their forest service vehicles up the road to within a mile of my house to tag , mark, paint trees for a great big sale they are planning. One of the week end residents up here is a logger for sun mountain out of deer lodge, they will be hauling 1 million board feet from the meadow area down hill from us 3 miles beginning in feb. they will open the road and they do have the proper permits etc.

Admittedly I do not know why you are concerned. I live on a mountain because I choose to...I expect to leave the forest service mostly alone and I expect them to do the same since i am on private land. The forest service routinely parks heavy equipment on our land so that the local hoods will not continue to damage it.

By the way DH is definately not a whimp...but he does know how to pick a battle and whom to pick it with and the forest service is not the one either of us would pick at this time.

I will be riding my snowmobile down in the morning and yes it is twice as fast as the blazer. sis

texican · #17 01/27/08, 08:55 PM

Well, Sis'... anyone who drinks ice tea in the morning, 'irregardless' of the weather, is alright by me!!!

I don't care if it's 80 above or 18 below, I like my quart of ice tea first thing in the morning... as strong as I can get it!

....about the snowmobile being twice as fast as the blazer, ...going down...

that could be "good" or "bad"... good if you're brakes work somewhere near the bottom...

Old Vet · #18 01/27/08, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sisterpine

Called GEICO and got the proper liability insurance on the atv and old truck and dh'struck which drags the drag. GEICO supervisor said that they cannot add the part about the USDA being insured since they do not have a policy with GEICO, GEICO does not know those folks and cannot insure an entire government agency...

Now what- ??? waiting for head ranger dude to send me example so I can see what I can do.

Since GEICO cna't insure the federial agency. You need to ask the ranger which insurance can. This will make him get off his but and get another policy changed. Since you can not insure any federial agency in any case it is just his way of making sure that you can not do what you want to do. If he make a sugestion he will be violating his non interest in sugesting an insurance. If he does just call them and tell them that you will pay only what GEICO and demand an insurance policy from them. Their is more than one way to make a government agency to leave you alone.

gardenfay · #19 01/27/08, 09:55 PM

Sounds like it will work out fine.
Have fun!

Alice In TX/MO · #20 01/28/08, 07:40 AM

Just a thought....

Maybe hubby is panicked because he's caught between you and the forest service?

He's in a no-win situation.