Alternatives to 4-H Club

[Ernie]

The Illinois Department of Agriculture is requiring all participants in state, county, 4-H, and FFA fairs beginning in 2008 to register their premises under the "voluntary" NAIS system.

As I am not willing to do so, are there any alternatives out there to these events? Or has another rich, rural tradition been destroyed by petty bureaucrats?

[hintonlady]

The grange is family oriented and has youth/leadership training for kids. Sounds like a nice bunch. I just havn't had time to follow through..........

As for 4H, I am faced with the same peoblem. I promised my son he could sell a lamb at the 4H auction for all his hard work, then they drop the ID premisis bomb on us. I'm still undecided.

Here's the thing, you can still exhibit in open livestock shows at the county/state level. In my small county they run at the same time, just some kids are not eligible for the 4H ribbons and premiums. In your area open shows may be seperate or be highly competitive because of the "show set".

i guess in my case a compromise would be, go to 4H activities and learn from a great resource, don't get premisis ID and show in open show. we sacrifice on the premiums and auction but DS doesn't miss out on activities. As a homeschooler activities are important to us.

[omnicat]

Isn't there something a bit oxymoronic about requiring registration in a voluntary program?

I'm also interested in hearing about alternatives. I will not go there.

[DocM]

Oregon requires premise ID for scrapies - it has nothing to do with NAIS. We comply, as do most people in all the neighboring states. I don't see NAIS mentioned in the article. Considering all the benefits of 4H, I can't imagine denying my children the experience because of my paranoia. I'd rather teach my children to work within the law and change it for the better. That's called "leadership", one of the basic tenets of 4H.

[AJ Williams]

Originally Posted by DocM

Oregon requires premise ID for scrapies - it has nothing to do with NAIS. We comply, as do most people in all the neighboring states. I don't see NAIS mentioned in the article. Considering all the benefits of 4H, I can't imagine denying my children the experience because of my paranoia. I'd rather teach my children to work within the law and change it for the better. That's called "leadership", one of the basic tenets of 4H.

Touche' DocM,
I agree we need to teach our children to work at changing from within the law. You can't straighten a mess out with out getting in the middle of it. Apparently people need to start riding their politicians about passing stupid laws to start with.

[RichieC]

Originally Posted by DocM

Oregon requires premise ID for scrapies - it has nothing to do with NAIS. We comply, as do most people in all the neighboring states. I don't see NAIS mentioned in the article. Considering all the benefits of 4H, I can't imagine denying my children the experience because of my paranoia. I'd rather teach my children to work within the law and change it for the better. That's called "leadership", one of the basic tenets of 4H.

Precisely. I agree with Ernie more often than not,but this is not a tradition under threat from petty bureaucrats. It is a tradition under threat from the foibles of certain parents.

[Ernie]

It's registration into the NAIS system, so I don't know how it can't be considered part of NAIS. From the Illinois website ...

The Illinois Department of Agriculture (IDOA) implemented the National Animal Identification System (NAIS) in Illinois. The NAIS is comprised of three major steps: premises registration, animal identification and animal tracking.

So yeah, initially the WHOLE THING was voluntary, and then they started excluding you from certain functions if you didn't volunteer. But they're saying phase two (animal identification) is still voluntary. Yeah right. They weren't trustworthy with the first phase, so how long do you think before the other events start requiring your animals also be identified under the system?

I resent this being part of "my paranoia". It's a valid stand on my rights that a lot of agricultural citizens are making. There's no tinfoil hat here. Many of us have just decided that we're not going to comply with this voluntarily, and we may exercise civil disobedience when enough of YOU have decided that you will comply and they decide to force the minority rest of us into it.

As for it being "for scrapies", only 18 cases of scrapies have been documented in the United States since 1990. You have as much chance of dropping dead from the avian flu as you do of bringing home scrapies from the state fair.

Thanks for the other options, Hintonlady. Activities are important to us as well and I would like the continuity of having my children participate in an organization that was an important part of my own childhood.

[Ernie]

I'm passionate enough about this that I'm going to add a second reply ...

Did Martin Luther King Jr. decide to "work within the law"? Did the drafters of the Declaration of Independence decide to "work within the law"?

That's absolutely NOT the values I want to teach my children, to just lay down and take it when bureaucrats with vested interests pass laws that limit our freedoms. No, we shouldn't lay down and take it. Absolutely not. I'm raising freedom-loving young men here. We get MAD around our dinner table at night when we discuss these things. Sometimes my kids pound on the table and shout, "HOW DARE THEY?" And that makes me very, very proud.

The voice of dissension is loud in my household. We are all rabble rousers. Back in the days when we had a television, our favorite channel was C-SPAN and you could hear us shouting at the television from outside on the street.

Come to dinner with me. I'll show you the next generation of patriots.

[diamondtim]

Ernie,

Have you considered organizing a "parallel fair", outside the 4H, FFA, etc. "system", among like-minded farmers? That is how many of these organizations were formed in the first place.

Just a thought and good luck with your decision.

[Up North Louie]

What Ernie said. Those who are "voluntarily" cooperating with NAIS, in my estimation, are sheep, and should be tagged as such, preferably through the ear.

After all, you volunteered.

Don

[mark.cheryl]

I'm assuming this will be on its way to Canada soon enough. Great. Write letters, it does make a differance. You can tell because a lot of idiotic laws were passed because of small groups making a lot of noise.

[sewtlm]

Do 4-H, take the learning but don't show livestock get your premiums in the non animal areas and do the animal poster classes all about your concerns about NAIS to put the problem in the public view.

Then write letters to all concerned including the state explaining why your children won't be exhibiting livestock. Also contact the extension office and your county council with your concerns. You could also see about handing out protest flyers at the fair.

Enforcement of this rule was up to the individual fair boards to this point, but I'm sure that the state is tieing up the state funding for 4-H premiums to this voluntary!? enforcement of the program.

Last year IL livestock animal exhibits were RFID tagged at weigh-in but no premise ID info was taken at any place we showed. Sheep have been scrapie tagged for several years now and this was the info that was recorded at weigh-in for state Competition.

I looked at it as they already have your info the minute the show results are recorded and sent to the state anyway----

But we are also no longer in IL this year.

[Texas_Plainsman]

The children would receive a greater benefit by learning about private property and what government is/isn't chartered to do. NAIS is NOT within the law. It may be in statute but it is NOT Constitutional. Leave 4-H and let them rot. We did.

Originally Posted by DocM

Oregon requires premise ID for scrapies - it has nothing to do with NAIS. We comply, as do most people in all the neighboring states. I don't see NAIS mentioned in the article. Considering all the benefits of 4H, I can't imagine denying my children the experience because of my paranoia. I'd rather teach my children to work within the law and change it for the better. That's called "leadership", one of the basic tenets of 4H.

[tomstractormag]

Check out Doreen Hannes. This is about becoming a serf.
http://www.newswithviews/Hannes/Doreen4.htm
Hopefully the link will work. If not just go to news with views and search for Doreen Hannes. Other good reads are Devvy Kidd and Frosty Wooldridge.
Tom

[freegal]

This requirement is for all fairs state-wide I believe. If you are near Ogle County they are planning to have the NAIS rep from Springfield at the farm bureau office on Saturday March 15th to speak on the requirements and answer questions. Anyone is welcome to attend. You can call the farm bureau office closer to the date for more info.

I was interested to hear what the other families in my son's 4-H club were going to say about registering but many are farmers, veterinarians or rural subdivision dwellers who don't seem to mind. Only one other family, like ours, seems to be concerned about it. We are not showing any animals this year at fairs, so we can hold off for now. But I did hear that if registering goes beyond the volunteer stage, it will be a mandatory $1K for registering. Anyone know if this is true?

Also, does anyone know if this affects horse shows not affiliated with state-run programs? Like breed shows held at fairgrounds or even at private showgrounds (like Ledges)?

[GingerN]

Originally Posted by Ernie

I'm passionate enough about this that I'm going to add a second reply ...

Did Martin Luther King Jr. decide to "work within the law"? Did the drafters of the Declaration of Independence decide to "work within the law"?

That's absolutely NOT the values I want to teach my children, to just lay down and take it when bureaucrats with vested interests pass laws that limit our freedoms. No, we shouldn't lay down and take it. Absolutely not. I'm raising freedom-loving young men here. We get MAD around our dinner table at night when we discuss these things. Sometimes my kids pound on the table and shout, "HOW DARE THEY?" And that makes me very, very proud.

The voice of dissension is loud in my household. We are all rabble rousers. Back in the days when we had a television, our favorite channel was C-SPAN and you could hear us shouting at the television from outside on the street.

Come to dinner with me. I'll show you the next generation of patriots.

Your bunch sounds like us. I have the next generation of patriots at my house too, but in female form. You have patriot boys, I have patriot girls....How do you feel about arranged marriages, lol

[hintonlady]

Regardless of reason to NOT want to volunteer I think using 4H, a kids activity, to "force" people to sign up is heavy handed. That in itself irritates me.

If the rationale for the need of this system is so unappealing as to not Attract sign up, perhpas they should work on their system or at least sales pitch.

Using children as a "shield" and punishing them for their parents ideals is SICK!!!

The worst/funniest part about it is; many maybe even most 4H families are not large scale livestock producers. In my area grain producers or semi rural families buy an animal project or two a year. Aside from dogs and cats that may be the ONLY livestock on property.

So, eventually some pencil pushing government monkey will have to look through several pages of premises that has 2 goats or something else pointless like that, rather than what they want which are farm producers with large herds who would care less about volunteering.

DUH!!

[sewtlm]

We just moved away from IL where you don't pay a tax for each animal you own and need a brand inspection like they do here in MT.

Brand inspection is $60 plus $25 for each animal and then each spring we now pay a tax on each animal (don't know how much this is). The state doesn't require premis ID at this time but they know about your livestock due to paying the tax.

Any state that collects property tax on livestock already has the information you are trying to hide so at this point I don't see the difference.

As to saying forget 4-H and that your families are such great patriots----
Isn't part of our governmental system the right to be heard from and voicing our opinions directally about and too said government. Use this constitutional right and be heard directly don't be a background grumbler. I was the person that the extension department at the state level hated to hear from. I questioned everything and every rule but changes were made on occasion because no one had questioned why for many years.

The key is get involved don't just sit there and complain. 4-H is about the kids not our own adult agendas.

[AJ Williams]

Originally Posted by sewtlm

We just moved away from IL where you don't pay a tax for each animal you own and need a brand inspection like they do here in MT.

Brand inspection is $60 plus $25 for each animal and then each spring we now pay a tax on each animal (don't know how much this is). The state doesn't require premis ID at this time but they know about your livestock due to paying the tax.

Any state that collects property tax on livestock already has the information you are trying to hide so at this point I don't see the difference.

As to saying forget 4-H and that your families are such great patriots----
Isn't part of our governmental system the right to be heard from and voicing our opinions directally about and too said government. Use this constitutional right and be heard directly don't be a background grumbler. I was the person that the extension department at the state level hated to hear from. I questioned everything and every rule but changes were made on occasion because no one had questioned why for many years.

The key is get involved don't just sit there and complain. 4-H is about the kids not our own adult agendas.

These things are happening because of the "Career" Politicians we send to Washington. Once we get "Career" Politicians out of the way and put "Servants of and for the People" there we will see a difference. We need to kick our politicians in the butt a few times and they will start doing what we want them to do.

[missysid]

Freegal it depends on the horse show and what funding they receive. For instance the IL state fair is going to require the ID program be included with entries in June or you are not allowed to even enter. I have a fear livestock numbers at the state fair will drop. At the IL Draft Horse meeting there were 3 rather large exibitors that had strong feelings about NOT signing up and said they would be skipping the fair all together.

Our son is in 4-h and was planning on showing horses this year however we will be doing the poster project to get around this. Mainly because of the reg and parly because he is not ready to compete in anything beside halter and at times that is iffy.

I would still suggest attending the 4-H sponored events and participate in non livestock classes like cooking. Our son his first year did you learn to bake and sold a basket of oatmeal cookies for $200. Our local county businesses all come out and really support the kids. It is great to see. That way you could still learn from the experience and he could earn a little extra income.