Where can I get a theodolite/transit?

[JWK]

Hi All,

Our property is 5 acres but only 180 feet wide (the typical bowling alley). It's around 1300 feet deep and goes through very thick scrub and some woods. It's impossible to know where the lines are. We found the surveryor's stake at one back corner.

I need to know if there is some fairly simple, cost effective surveyor's theodolite/transit to mark the lines from this stake so we know where to clear, etc. I've looked on ebay but realize I don't know enough to even begin shopping. Can anyone tell me what I need or where I can learn about simple surveying and tools? We really can't start doing anything until we can be fairly sure of the lines. Neighbors on both sides are very nice and everyone will understand that this is not a legal survey.

Thanks for any advice or info.

John

[hillsidedigger]

A complete, correct and thoroughly marked survey with plat by a Professional Land Surveyor would likely cost less than any used transit or theodilite you could purchase.

Note - A transit or theodilite can only be used to measure angles (if used by someone who knows how). You would still need a method of precisely measuring distances and a thorough working knowledge of coordinate and analytical geometry, not to mention a thorough knowledge of the legal principles involved in rationalizing the conflicting ground evidence of your deed versus the adjoining deeds.

[JWK]

Maybe I'm naming the wrong tool for the job. I need something that enables me to mark a line along a specific compass line. I don't need to measure distances. The line is straight from the back of the property to the road. I came pretty close just using a hand held compass one day.

[hillsidedigger]

Originally Posted by JWK

Maybe I'm naming the wrong tool for the job. I need something that enables me to mark a line along a specific compass line. I don't need to measure distances. The line is straight from the back of the property to the road. I came pretty close just using a hand held compass one day.

As a self-employed licensed surveyor for 20+ years, I can say, you asked for the right, although outdated, equipment to start to figure out your task at hand.

There is no such device as one to magically determine and mark some nebulous compass bearing line from some time in the past. Angles must be turned from existing ground monumentation or other evidence (after reconciling conflicting wording of adjoining property descriptions, and yes, adjoining descriptions commonly if not almost always have conflicting wording (because so many past surveys were inaccurately conducted with compasses), and this process of reconciling the deeds requires very precise distance measurements) to determine record property lines.

[Michael Kawalek]

Hi John
Years ago I worked for the US Forest Service, and was sometimes involved in laying official boundries for cutting areas. For doing this we used a Surveyor's compass. This is the one I used then, and still have now....

http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html

It has a sighting mirror, is accurate, and is declination adjustable, so you get true readings, not magnetic. Coupled with a 100-150 feet measuring tape, you can quite accurately map out boundary lines. When I bought our homestead, this is how I checked my boundaries.
Michael

[JWK]

Originally Posted by hillsidedigger

As a self-employed licensed surveyor for 20+ years, I can say, you asked for the right, although outdated, equipment to start to figure out your task at hand.

There is no such device as one to magically determine and mark some nebulous compass bearing line from some time in the past. Angles must be turned from existing ground monumentation or other evidence (after reconciling conflicting wording of adjoining property descriptions, and yes, adjoining descriptions commonly if not almost always have conflicting wording (because so many past surveys were inaccurately conducted with compasses), and this process of reconciling the deeds requires very precise distance measurements) to determine record property lines.

I know enough to know that I don't know enough to be sure of getting an exact property line. Your post is informative. Even though I don't understand all of it, it gives me more direction to be able to learn more (I hope).

Just curious about something: Why would a compass line determined about 25 years ago when the farm was subdivided be nebulous? My deed states this compass line, stating magnetic north and not true north. Can you shed light on this?

Thanks for the info.

John

[JWK]

Originally Posted by Michael Kawalek

Hi John
Years ago I worked for the US Forest Service, and was sometimes involved in laying official boundries for cutting areas. For doing this we used a Surveyor's compass. This is the one I used then, and still have now....

http://www.thecompassstore.com/ranger1.html

It has a sighting mirror, is accurate, and is declination adjustable, so you get true readings, not magnetic. Coupled with a 100-150 feet measuring tape, you can quite accurately map out boundary lines. When I bought our homestead, this is how I checked my boundaries.
Michael

That looks like a good tool to have. I always wondered what that type of compass was used for (with the mirror). I'll have to look up how to use that to get a compass bearing line. Is it easy to explain, or do I need to get detailed directions with illustrations?

I figure once I get the rough lines marked out, I'll see where that leaves me regarding my neighbor's claimed lines. If I'm not happy with where that leaves me, I'll get a liscensed surveyor to legally establish the boundaries.

[Terri]

Do they mark the corners with metal pins? A metal detector might work.

[hillsidedigger]

Originally Posted by JWK

Just curious about something: Why would a compass line determined about 25 years ago when the farm was subdivided be nebulous? My deed states this compass line, stating magnetic north and not true north. Can you shed light on this?
John

Anything expressed as a 'compass or magnetic' bearing is almost always nebulous, or at best just roughly approximate. The way to determine a 'true compass bearing (odd, possibly inappropriate use of the word true) for a given place and time is to first determine a True Astronomic bearing there from Polaris or the Sun and then look at one of the compass charts to find the difference. If the time was taken to get the True Astronomic bearing, why would a compass bearing have been needed?

At best, the supposed 'compass bearing' of 25 years ago was likely plus or minus 2 to 3 degrees from the true 'compass bearing' of that line at that time, because it was likely 'pulled' with a hand compass.

Your ability to use a hand compass now will likely be plus or minus 2 to 3 degrees also and there has been a slight (much less than the sighting ability of a hand compass) change in magnetic bearing over the 25 years.

So, extending a line for 1300' thru brush (hope there's no hills) at plus or minus maybe 4 to 6 degrees will leave an extent of confidence maybe 200' wide at the end of the line, although could be much less with great care and repeated attempts.

[texican]

I see a lot of chainsawing and machete work in your future...

You might want to look into getting a compass and a laser level... I've got a laser that I use for setting my foundation levels... it's on a tripod, and can be leveled... then the laser can swing 360 degrees. If you get your compass bearing, shoot the laser along that line... then get out the chainsaw and machete and start clearing out the brush... the laser will shoot straight... if you come up against a tree, that you don't want to cut down... move the laser to the other side of the tree and start again on the same compass bearing...

I spent a whole semester at college learning how to use an alidade and plane (every single weekend, and three half days a week) and at the end, I was just starting to figure everything out. Nowadays surveyors are using fancy lasers for their surveying... a lot easier and more accurate.

[agmantoo]

Is either of the long 1300 ft lines more accessible than the other? If so, do that line and then determine the 180 ft off it at various intervals. Get you neighbor to see if he will agree with the results. If so that is good enough for fencing. If the neighbor later disagrees as to the fence location it is his responsibility to make the verification that you are off the line. As for setbacks for permanent buildings just give yourself a few additional feet for error to meet zoning.

[JWK]

Originally Posted by texican

I see a lot of chainsawing and machete work in your future...

You might want to look into getting a compass and a laser level... I've got a laser that I use for setting my foundation levels... it's on a tripod, and can be leveled... then the laser can swing 360 degrees. If you get your compass bearing, shoot the laser along that line... then get out the chainsaw and machete and start clearing out the brush... the laser will shoot straight... if you come up against a tree, that you don't want to cut down... move the laser to the other side of the tree and start again on the same compass bearing...

The laser level sounds like a good idea. I'll probably put good use to it when we get our next place within the next five years (unless something really bad happens...you never know).

What would you suggest as the most accurate way to shoot the laser along the compass bearing?

[wy_white_wolf]

Originally Posted by JWK

... Why would a compass line determined about 25 years ago when the farm was subdivided be nebulous? My deed states this compass line, stating magnetic north and not true north. Can you shed light on this?

Thanks for the info.

John

Magnetic north is not a constant. The magnetic north pole moves around. A survey done by that 25 years ago would most likely be off between 2 to 10 degrees from todays measurements.

http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/geomag/nmp/daily_mvt_nmp_e.php

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4520982.stm

[Rowdy]

If you could find the other stake at the back of the property you could use a transit to turn 90degrees and clear along that line up to the road. That should be pretty accurate (assuming the property is square/rectangle.)
That is exactly what I did in fact, and I'm in about the same boat as you. My place is 208ft wide and 1253ft long. I had all four stakes in place, but had too much brush to be able to see. So, I came up with a transit, rented a dozer. Turned 90degrees from the other stake and had someone stay at the transit to keep me online as I cleared the fenceline. Came out perfect.


Though having a surveryor do the same thing would cost more, it would give you peace of mind, and someone else to blame if it didn't come out right.

[hillsidedigger]

Magnetic north has only shifted about 1/2 of a degree in New York over the last 25 years.

Here is a change in magnetic declination calculator:

http://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/seg/geomag/...alcDeclination

But, such is very misleading. Turning angles from known (how can you be confident the found markers are correct?) points, as Rowdy suggest, is the most practical method to perform the task.

[JWK]

Rowdy: Yes, the property is rectangle. I don't know if I will be able to find the other stake. My neighbor claims the guy that owned the home before the previous owner got mad and went out and pulled the stake out because he was not happy with my neighbor's survey results. I don't know if this is true or not. I will go on an all-out search when the snow clears to find a matching stake to mine.

hillsidedigger: Yes, are the found markers correct in the first place? That is what my wife and I wonder. It seems neighbors on both sides of us are "squeezing" us a bit. One or both of them are wrong because their claims do not give us 180 feet between at the road as it should. All of these lots are 180 feet wide. Both my neighbors have double lots (lucky them). They both want to own the trees that line both sides perpendicular from the road. The neighbor on one side showed me the stake his surveyor put in when he surveyed about 10 years ago. The other side has nothing I have been able to find. That neighbor never wants to talk to anyone, although he is never unfriendly and in fact snowblowed our driveway the first winter we moved in (four years ago) after storms. Our driveway is 125 yards long and we had nothing but snow shovels. In any case, he is a recluse and we have never even exchanged words. So there are two stakes to be found at diagonal sides of the property put in at two different times by two different surveyors. This is mostly an excercise in curiousity for me. If I'm not satisfied with what I find myself, of course I'll see my attorney and hire a surveyor.

[hillsidedigger]

From what you have written, it sounds like your property is a part of a 'simultaneous division' and so a network of tied together by accurate measurement of any group of 3 or more original corner markers within the overall subdivision can be used to determine where any missing or moved markers should be located so correctly defining the position of lines.

[Terri]

Go to one of the existine stakes, and see if there is a metal pin with a flat top driven into the ground. The flat top would be level with the ground, and it might be completely grown over.

In this state, the surveyers put in such pins to mark the corners, and the stakes are ONLY so that the land owner can find the pins.

[JWK]

I shouldn't have used the word "stake". They are pins similar to what you describe for the same purpose.

[MushCreek]

I need to figure this out, too. We had our lot surveyed a year ago when we bought it, but all they did was verify the corners. On side of the property is too densely wooded to get a line of sight, even in the winter. I plan to run some fencing eventually; how do I keep on track and not take/give away any property? Will a surveyor place intermediate flags for this purpose?