Am I wasting good wood?

walnutgrove · #1 01/09/08, 03:48 PM

I live in Lockhart, TX and am wanting to build a split-rail fence but dont have any cedar on my property. What I do have are tons and tons of tall straight thin oaks that would be perfect for it. I hate to cut down oaks as they take soooo long to grow and seems like I should be putting them to better use ( I dont know what though). Am I wasting good wood?

homesteadforty · #2 01/09/08, 04:18 PM

Oak should work just fine for the rails. Depending on the type of oak it may do o.k. as posts but cedar or locust is much better.

If you plan to have the property long enough to timber you might be better in the long run to let the oak grow and buy the fence. Otherwise there's lots of oak that is burned as firewood so I wouldn't consider it a waste to use it for fencing.

meanwhile · #3 01/09/08, 04:31 PM

We had to take down some smaller oaks while cleaning up a garden....ours was red oak.....we used them for fence posts and rails. The posts lasted about 5 years and then rotted off. The rails are still good...at 6 years but do show signs of rot. We will probably have to replace them this year. If you have the oak and have to cut some, I would say use it but like above said...homesteadforty...if you do not have to cut the oak, it might be best to buy the cedar or locust. Good luck

walnutgrove · #4 01/09/08, 05:48 PM

Ya im clearing 3 acres for a large garden and orchard so they have to go anyways. The oaks are white not red, does that make a difference? Thanks for the help.

TNHermit · #5 01/09/08, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walnutgrove

Ya im clearing 3 acres for a large garden and orchard so they have to go anyways. The oaks are white not red, does that make a difference? Thanks for the help.

White oak will be fine for fence post. As they said Red oak rots. You can tell the difference by cutting off a little piece of each. you can blow through the end grain of red oak but not the white. Seein as how your from Texas these "little" oak trees are how big. if they are 12 inches and above you should make lumber out of them. White oak is not as easy to find as red and it makes nice furniture as well as things for outdoors as it last a long time out there. What else ya go ya can cut down.

walnutgrove · #6 01/09/08, 08:17 PM

The ones im talking about are about 3 -4 inches wide. For some reason they all grew really tall and straight with no branches until the top.

RosewoodfarmVA · #7 01/10/08, 06:56 AM

If yours are only 3 or 4 inches diameter then you have trees with all sapwood. These will rot much quicker than larger trees that were split to a 3 or 4 inch rail. Larger trees, maybe 6" up, will have some heartwood. Sounds like you'll be using "poles" rather than split rails. My prediction, atleast for around here in Virginia, would be that they would rot and break in just a few years. This is because the wood hasn't "hardened" enough yet.

Use Less · #8 01/10/08, 07:29 AM

There are the other possible advantages of leaving the trees including sight & sound barriers from neighbors, wind and temp moderation in summer, acorn production as a valuable and preferred food of many kinds of wild critters. Oaks actually don't reseed themselves as easily as other kinds of trees, either. I forget exactly; something about depth of leaf litter, but forget if it encourages or impedes. I would certainly take thought for the spin-off of cutting before I did that. Sue

stanb999 · #9 01/10/08, 07:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walnutgrove

The ones im talking about are about 3 -4 inches wide. For some reason they all grew really tall and straight with no branches until the top.

If you use them as poles and don't split they will last quite a while. What I'd suggest you do is cut and bark them. Build the fence. Then treat with an out door wood stain. It will add years to their life. Don't paint unless your gonna let them dry for a good year. Also, whats nice with the stain is you can use a pump sprayer to apply it. If you do this every two years or so it will outlast you.

Hillbillybob · #10 01/10/08, 08:03 AM

Your trees have grown close togather to have few branches.

Your timber sounds like it is ready for a thinning, removing about 1/3 to 1/2 of the trees. You should end up with your trees about 10 ft apart in all directions. In about 10 to 12 years you should be ready for another thinning.

When the tops are all grown togather it is time to thin to about 20 feet apart. I know it will look like you are just cutting down all your trees but you are really doing your forest a great surface.

Pick out any trees that are crooked, having bad trunks, or any other defect that you see.

I take spray red paint and paint a circle at about 4 ft high on all the trees I want to keep. I can then look at what my timber will look like after thinning.

This will help your trees over all and only let the healthy trees to fight for the sun and water and nutrients. You will have better forest over all.

Hillbillybob

texican · #11 01/10/08, 09:46 AM

I'd agree with WIHH, if you got the wood, and don't need all of it, use it.

You know, I'm sure that building a split rail fence is very labor intensive, right?

And, it may or may not actually hold any critters in, or out... would probably work out well for docile critters, but randy cows not... or pigs or goats.

And, if you get five years out of it, without it collapsing, you'd be lucky. Look at how long a stick of firewood lasts, out in the weather. My firewood stacks are all wormfood in two years (all oak... even my white oak firewood will disintegrate, except for a small finger of heartwood)... whereas I have cedar logs that are still solid ten years after cutting, and just lying on the ground.

If I was in need of a split rail fence, I'd start asking neighbors if they knew of anyone with land they needed cedar cleared off of. Most will probably say no, but it only takes one landowner with a lot of cedar, to get your project done.

good luck!

EDDIE BUCK · #12 01/10/08, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hillbillybob

Your trees have grown close togather to have few branches.

Your timber sounds like it is ready for a thinning, removing about 1/3 to 1/2 of the trees. You should end up with your trees about 10 ft apart in all directions. In about 10 to 12 years you should be ready for another thinning.

When the tops are all grown togather it is time to thin to about 20 feet apart. I know it will look like you are just cutting down all your trees but you are really doing your forest a great surface.

Pick out any trees that are crooked, having bad trunks, or any other defect that you see.

I take spray red paint and paint a circle at about 4 ft high on all the trees I want to keep. I can then look at what my timber will look like after thinning.

This will help your trees over all and only let the healthy trees to fight for the sun and water and nutrients. You will have better forest over all.

Hillbillybob

Yep, if your oaks are pretty thick stand, thin the stand, because you are going to lose them anyway, one way or another. Thinning will help those left to grow faster and using the thinnings will keep you from loseing them. If you could find enough cedar for the post I dought anyone reading this will be around when you or whoever lol has to replace the fence. Eddie

walnutgrove · #13 01/10/08, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by texican

I'd agree with WIHH, if you got the wood, and don't need all of it, use it.

You know, I'm sure that building a split rail fence is very labor intensive, right?

And, it may or may not actually hold any critters in, or out... would probably work out well for docile critters, but randy cows not... or pigs or goats.

And, if you get five years out of it, without it collapsing, you'd be lucky. Look at how long a stick of firewood lasts, out in the weather. My firewood stacks are all wormfood in two years (all oak... even my white oak firewood will disintegrate, except for a small finger of heartwood)... whereas I have cedar logs that are still solid ten years after cutting, and just lying on the ground.

If I was in need of a split rail fence, I'd start asking neighbors if they knew of anyone with land they needed cedar cleared off of. Most will probably say no, but it only takes one landowner with a lot of cedar, to get your project done.

good luck!

Ya ok you were right about it being labor intensive - I started today cutting down the right size trees and hauling them out of the woods where I could tow them to the needed spot. I worked for 2 hours and have a grand total of 10 logs

Need another 46. I havent even debarked them. CRY. O Weeeeell...Im too stubborn to quit now. Besides I love the look of that kind of fence to seperate the home part from the rest of the farm. Kinda Texasy lookin to me. Im not surehow it will look but i think I'll take ur advice on the cedar (ill use that for the posts) and the oak for the rails. Hopefully it wont look stupid once its stained and sealed.

RedneckPete · #14 01/10/08, 08:46 PM

It kills me to hear about anyone cutting down an immature oak. I would cut down every OTHER immature tree on my homestead before I cut a young oak.

The oaks will eventually produce the best timber or firewood logs your land can grow. I'd be thinking hardwood floors and serious BTU's down the road. If they need to be thinned I would cut to preserve oak and sugar maple, the two most valuable trees in any woodlot, IMHO.

Pete

Alice In TX/MO · #15 01/10/08, 09:14 PM

Remember there are LOTS of kinds of oaks. Sounds like post oak, which doesn't make the pretty spreading type of old growth you are talking about.

Alice, Native Texan

PyroDon · #16 01/10/08, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedneckPete

It kills me to hear about anyone cutting down an immature oak. I would cut down every OTHER immature tree on my homestead before I cut a young oak.

The oaks will eventually produce the best timber or firewood logs your land can grow. I'd be thinking hardwood floors and serious BTU's down the road. If they need to be thinned I would cut to preserve oak and sugar maple, the two most valuable trees in any woodlot, IMHO.

Pete

around here you cant spit with out hitting an oak .My yard and every hedge row is 3 inches deep in acorns. Red oak ,and pin oaks grow like weeds here.
I cut all of them out from around our stables about five years ago, every stump has between 4 and 5 6-8" trees growing out of it. They are due for another cutting , hopefully I can kill the stumps this time.

Hillbillybob · #17 01/10/08, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walnutgrove

Ya ok you were right about it being labor intensive - I started today cutting down the right size trees and hauling them out of the woods where I could tow them to the needed spot. I worked for 2 hours and have a grand total of 10 logs

Need another 46. I havent even debarked them. CRY. O Weeeeell...Im too stubborn to quit now. Besides I love the look of that kind of fence to seperate the home part from the rest of the farm. Kinda Texasy lookin to me. Im not surehow it will look but i think I'll take ur advice on the cedar (ill use that for the posts) and the oak for the rails. Hopefully it wont look stupid once its stained and sealed.

If you wish to debark the logs you sure are cutting them at the wrong time of the year. Your work at taking off the bark now will be a very big chore. You need to wait until the last of March to cut your rails. They will just about debark them selves as they dry at that time of the year.

As far as hurting your timber by thinning out the oaks you will find that they will make nice logs one day by doing a thinning at the right time of growth.

If you are wanting nice trees to someday get lumber out of then you will need to pick and chose what trees you wish to leave. If you let nature take it's course you will find your lumber harvest will be off by as much as 40% by not doing a thinning now. Nature doesn't always leave the best trees to make logs out of.

Talk to a state forester who will come out and help you to learn what a healthy forest should look like to get the best lumber from your trees along with what oaks that will make the best lumber in time.

I don't like to clear cut my timber as I have a timber sale every few years. I want a healthy forest and have gotten a lot of good free information from my state and I'm sure your state will have someone who can come out and help you more than anyone on this board just posting.

Hillbillybob

walnutgrove · #18 01/10/08, 10:25 PM

Thanks for all the great info !!! Really appreciate it !!!

texican · #19 01/11/08, 06:21 PM

After bending every other staple yesterday, while out patching fences, I meant to post last night and ask what kind of oak you have. My fence posts were put in by my grandpa, from post oak trees he split himself. They're still hard as steel... at least 3/4 of em... if they lay on the ground they disintegrate quicker... otherwise they're pretty tenacious.

If you have post oak, they'd be great. You might thin out your oak stand, and allow the remaining ones to grow. It's a fact that you can have the same volume of timber in a few years, if you thin out the extra trees. Oaks grow slow... but if they're thick as dog hairs, they'll never get large....

good luck, and post a pic... are you doing the two upright posts, wired, with rails, or just zig zagged rails?

sugarbush · #20 01/11/08, 06:30 PM

If they are tall and straight and I where you, I would quit now. In about 25 years you will have a nice retirement in veneer logs. White oak brings top dollar for veneer, they will need to grow to about 15-20 inch range though.

I actually just milled a white oak veneer log into wagon runners a few days ago...ooppps. The guy I am milling for promised the fella who sold him this truckload of logs some 16 ft wagon runners. So the guy came out looking for them and I told him if he had a few minutes I would find a 16 ft log and mill them out for him right now. I started looking around and found a nice pile of 16 ft logs off to the side, grabbed one and milled it out. Today the guy who I am doing the milling for stopped by and say "I ment to tell you not to mill anything in that pile over there, I have a veneer guy that is going to buy that stuff"...... I just smiled and said okay :baby04: