Dug up our foundation yesterday...

[Kung]

(not sure if this is the right place - if not, please feel free to move)

We dug up our foundation yesterday because after a SERIOUS rain (we're talking about a day of steady rain) it starts to seep into our house at the base of the foundation.

So we finally got the water pipe located, removed the house ground (for the electrical system) and get down there...and discover that the 'drain tile' is NON-perforated terra-cotta clay piping.

Was that ever normal? I fail to see how that would serve as drain tile in the least bit. There was NO gravel down there, and as a matter of fact it wasn't below the foundation - it was right even with it.

Am I missing something here?

[MELOC]

did the pipe go anywhere or did you find the end of it?

eta...

ok...need input, lol. drain tile for draining the yard or for carrying water from the spouting?

[Kung]

Sorry about that. LOL

Ok, the side of our house is partially earth-bermed (built into the ground). It's about 5 ft underground at one edge, about 3 at the other edge.

The drain tile appears to have run along the entire side of the house, and then hang a sharp left at the front of the house, where it appears to have tied into the drain at the front of our house, in the middle of the concrete pad right in front of our front door. (Which makes no sense, unless the piping along the side of the house served no other purpose than to remove the water from the pad at the front door and put it to the back of the house.)

My questions are thus:

1) While the concrete pad with the drain is about even with the foundation, the BACK of the house is lower than the front, so as drain tile, this would have made no sense.
2) IMHO, drain tile is supposed to protect against water pooling against the house, but it couldn't do that if it wasn't perforated.

Any thoughts? I can draw a pic if needs be.

[MELOC]

lol, you may have to...i am a little dense. hehe

[TNHermit]

Clay tile is what was used before the perforated plastic. Water seeps into the joints of the tile. it should have been covered by a couple of different grades of stone. Fines on top of the tile and course on top of that. What happens after time is that mud seeps in and plugs the tile somewhere. Probably what has happened. You either have to find the plug or take it all out and run the Perf. you might get lucky and run a auger down the tile and find the plug. I would think it would be in the area where the water is coming in. Or thats just the best place the water could find to get out.
Check out where it all drains to and make sure some critter hasn't decide to make a home

[Kung]

Well, at the very least, as you said, not only was the tile plugged (there were spots that were completely filled with mud) but there was NO gravel/chat/etc. down there.

That's just it - the guy had it draining back to front, if I am not mistaken; when it needs (and it does now) to drain front to back.

As far as the description to my house goes, let me see if I can restate it a bit easier.

When you pull into my driveway, you're seeing the front of the house, where the front door is. In front of the door is a concrete slab, and in the middle of it is a drain.

Now, as you stand at the front door, the left-hand side of the house is slightly built into the earth, because the land naturally slopes down not only left to right, but also front to back. As such, the front left corner of our house is about 5 feet into the ground; whereas the back left corner is built about 3 feet into the ground.

Now, that being said, since the ground naturally slopes left to right, AND front to back, the natural thing to do is to run drain tile from the front to the back of the house, and then continue extending it out behind the house, where the grade is lower still.

But that's not what the guy did. He ran it back to FRONT, and then it hooks a left to tie into that drain I mentioned before.

Why he did that, I have no clue.

[tallpaul]

well if ya got problems and I believe ya have block walls where the dirt is? I would clean the walls from the grade down and re seal. clean the ditch well and you can re route the water away to the down hill slope or to a sump crock and pump it away. People if diggin by hand would not always take the best route but the shortest one. I would NOT USE elephant trunk but the hard plastic drain pipe. The hard work is in the prep. The right pipe and backfill will do a better job and likely outlast you. I would prefer tearing a yard up and runnin the foundation drain by gravity if possible. It becomes almost idiot proof then and not reliant upon power.

[Kung]

That's what we just did yesterday - I should have been clearer.

The only thing we didn't do is to reseal the WHOLE wall. We did seal the obvious problem areas (everywhere that it leaked before) but when it DID leak, it did so ONLY after a day or two of hard rain, and it was a slow seep ONLY at the foundation bottom.

That told us that it was most likely that the water became saturated, couldn't go down, couldn't be carried away due to the drain tile not working, and therefore could only start to seep into the foundation.

But other than sealing only the problem areas, we did everything you suggested.

[tallpaul]

got a digital camera? I have fixed quite a few of those issues over the years... downspouts seem to cause most followed by foundation and backfill issues.

[tallpaul]

well the drain under the stoop may go out in another direction or tee off where you don't see it. But if the drain was not clogged even if perferated the water if going to the backside of the house likely would drain. If the draid pipes were open and no damaging "settling" had occured in the line somewhere. Did ya run a garden house in it to make sure of the flow?

[TNHermit]

Most likely he went with the lay of the land. That being the left is higher and figured he could drain it down hill to the front rather than to the back like it should be. the drain in front could be a french drain. Where you did a hole , fill it with stone and rock and then the water runs in and seeps away. Usually done just to drain a certain area, not the whole house. Have you checked the block on the inside where the water was coming in to see if it has mold. I'm not a big ( Oh my god you got mold type) But there are some good interior sealers out there nowdays that will keep the moisture from coming in.

[tallpaul]

Oh and depending on the site I have seen lines go through a "Hill" or high spot only to come out on a lower grade. That is why you need to look at more than the immediate area... I think most do realize water runs down hill unless pumped

[Windy in Kansas]

Originally Posted by TNHermit

Clay tile is what was used before the perforated plastic. Water seeps into the joints of the tile.

Tile used in this manner is indeed leaky. Around the turn of the last century my grandfather laid clay tile without mortar throughout the family garden. He then fed water through the tile from a 500 gallon or larger concrete tank fed by a windmill. The first sub-irrigated garden in our little part of the world.

Yes, tile used with mortar free joints will indeed convey water in a good manner.

[rambler]

Have several miles of concrete & clay tile under my small farm. Water seeps in on the joints laying next to each other, very common typical tile. Gravel woulda been good, but it was common to just backfill with what was removed.

Well, the obvious - water runs downhill. If there was already a drain avaialable, certainly they would run the tile to the exsisting drain, rather than have to tile a few 100 feet away with a new drain run. Much less trenching! I'm not sure I understand the issue here.

--->Paul

[haypoint]

I may have missed the detail here, but there is a point in the slope of the land that is lower than the basement footings? I'm thinking some where in the corner of your back yard. Get a backhoe to dig up one side at a time. Lay down the PVC and backfill. I think someone here had it backwards, crushed stone first, then coarse sand, some straw and finally the soil that exists. You can either extend your rain gutter down spouts farther from the house or add a down pipe for the rain water to go directly to your new PVC drain tile. If you do one wal at a time there is less chance your house will tumble into the unsupported basement walls due to a change in pressure of the dirt against just one side.

[greenhaven]

Originally Posted by Kung

Ok, the side of our house is partially earth-bermed (built into the ground). It's about 5 ft underground at one edge, about 3 at the other edge.

Okay, this is pretty OT, but, omigosh, are you sure you aren't living in OUR old house? Wait, I KNOW you aren't, cuz you have a foundation.

Our old house was very, very similiar to yours...except our "foundation" was a four inch floating slab. In northern Illinois. And all the underground parts were concrete block. Unsealed. And (the former owner/builder) retrofitted drain tile to SOME of the sides of the house. After the water poured in and rotted out sill plates and sheathing.

Consider yourself lucky. We had so much black and green and red mold that we couldn't live there anymore, and building was way out of the budget with two teens fast approaching college age. We sold the place for half what is was worth because the house was garbage, and moved to town.

I recommend just replacing the clay tiles with a proper drainage system while you have it all torn open anyway. The expense is in the labor, really.

Oh, and I am sorry for your troubles, not just sorry for myself!

[Pony]

The drain tile in our circa 1956 house is clay as well. We have to make sure that we rod it out every couple of years, and then it's good to go for a while. We had the same sort of seepage after heavy rain that you describe, until someone told us that we have to locate the clean out and rod it.

We either borrow a sewer rodder or rent one at the Ace Hardware.

BTW, do you have a sump pit and pump? That can help with the water situation too.

Sorry to hear you're having water troubles. They are just so darned annoying.

Pony!

[Gil]

I have built many basements in western Washington on mountains, rainforest's and within protected water sheds. If you have not backfilled this foundation yet you may want to consider a few things here. #1. REPLACE all clay tile with 4" or larger perforated plastic pipe that has a silt sleeve. Make very sure pipe slopes out to a dry well or storm water sewer starting even with or slightly above the FOOTING (not the stem wall). This takes hand work - not machine! #2. Re-seal and NOT with the asphalt emulsion that MOST builders use and probably all building supply stores will direct you to (will break down). Many other products are available and a little searching the net should be helpful. Me, I would use clay sheets made of Bentonite as it has a long life span and is truly waterproof. #3. Back fill and do it properly! Do not just grab a machine and dump gravel on the pipe as it has a tendency to uplift thereby destroying the slope of the drain. If necessary, pin the pipe down first with stakes (wood or rebar - DO NOT USE ROCKS), or just place gravel by hand in spots to hold it down. When the machine backfills with more gravel, stand on or very near that spot to hold pipe in position and use shovels with both hands. Use as much gravel as you can afford. If the excavated hole is large then use old plywood or osb to minimize gravel consumption. A foot or two wide by as far up as you can go and still grow a little grass is good. Theres probably a lot more that could be said but this should cover the most important basic steps for proper drainage.