No water,What next?

[Suemo]

I had water until I finished watering the animals then it stopped. I checked the well house but since I can turn the water valve on and off it must mean that is not frozen. I checked under the bathroom floor - all our water lines are in a 26 foot stretch mostly along the west foundation wall. I have solid insulation along the west wall on the outside but still have a gale of wind under there. I have been working on stopping all wind leaks but still have no water and feel it is in front of the water filter. Where do I look next? I have a light bulb under the house now,
My cold water has been extremely cold for several weeks and I have been puzzling this . I reinsulated the well pipes where they come into the pump house last week.
The pump is not pumping no sound anywhere at all. What would I look for if it in the well?
Suemo

[just_sawing]

1.First of all not being redundent but when you turn on the valve. If yes goto next line.
2. Goto the next place that the water line is accesable. Is there water there? If not the water is stopped up or frozen between that point and the well house. Think outside the box. I did not say go to the next valve but to where the water has a fitting. If you loosen the fitting if there is water there it will leak.IF you have water there goto 3
3 From that place where the water is present go to the next place down line. repeat 2 and three until you find the spot.
For information water freezes at transitions first that is where is goes through a wall excetra.
Maybe this will help.

[Suemo]

My water just came on and I am no wiser than I was. I still do not know where was frozen nor why it waited until the warmest part of the day to freeze. Sigh, I like to KNOW things not just guess at them. If I knew where it froze then I could do something about it so it would not happen again!. There did not seem to be water anywhere from the well house where the first connection is to the next one which is under the house from there it is a wilderness. Someone had fun seeing how many pipes they could put under there.
Suemo

[palani]

Heat trace and insulating the pipes is pretty cheap. For short term leave a little trickle of water come out of the hydrant all the time on the theory that flowing water won't freeze.

[Suemo]

I am out of water again this morning. Plenty of pressure until 9:30 the it quit! Again. I have the faucet open so I will know when it starts again. But I still do nor know where the trouble is. unless it is around the well. I have a submersible pump and the well is a good distance from the house. But the pipes are burrowed deeply, but maybe not where it comes from the well.
Guess i will wait for a few hours..... I have water stored, just wanted to wash the dishes <G> and don't want to waste it if I might not get any for a while
Suemo

[Jim S.]

What kind of spigot you got? You said watering the animals? Is it an in-ground hydrant? If it is not buried deep enough or if the drainage system is plugged in-ground and will not allow the water to drain out and away from the standpipe when you shut it off, then it is freezing right at the place where the inlet pipe attaches to the spigot. There's typically a 90-degree el there.

That is the voice of experience. I have even had the inlet pipe burst at that attaching point in the past. I finally redid the prior owner's work and dug out the drain areas of all mine and put in good gravel drain pits, then got some 4" black perf pipe and cut a slit lengthwise in it so I could put it around the standpipe of my outdoor hydrants. The black pipe and the still air it creates, combined with the improved hydrant draining, fixed the trouble.

Also, with these self-draining hydrants (if that is what you have), if you have even a short a hose attached it will not drain out properly. I put a Y on each one, and I just open the valve on the side of the Y not attached to the hose, to let air in to displace the water and drain the hydrant after shutting it off.

The only other thing I can think of -- if it is the whole system -- is that it is not icing, but rather your pump is drawing down the well til it gets below the inlet.

[ksfarmer]

Are you positive it is freezing up? If you are running water before , then it might be something else, such as the water table getting low and you are running out of water.

[wy_white_wolf]

Are you using lots of water in the morning?

Could the pump be overheating from working too hard and shutting down until it cools?

Could the well be running dry?

How deep is your well?

[Little Quacker in OR]

Hey Suemo! I don't know if this would apply to your situation or not. But when we moved to the northwest from the desert our first real cold winter took me completely by surprise. With my dh bedridden I had to "fix it" and figure out how to get water back and keep this from happening again.

I traced the water line everywhere it was exposed (meaning not buried underground)even to crawling under the house(yuk!). That is where the trouble was where the water came into the house, up the walls and to the wash machine. So, I headed to the hardware store, got some insulating wrap of some type(?)..lots of it, and wrapped everything I could see or feel both, outside faucets and pipes as well as under the house.

Then I hung a light bulb(with a mechanics light) with a light bulb next to the fixtures right at the pump and storage tank. It stays on all winter and I use a "long lasting" bulb and I keep an eye on it checking it every night when I take the dogs out for their last walk of the night.

The initial unfreezing I did with a propane torch. Haven't had this problem since, if we are talking freezing water pipes. However I do have to re start the pump manually sometimes when we lose power.

I hope you solve this, it's really a pain in the butt when you don't have water!

LQ

[agmantoo]

Rather than take a shotgun approach you need to systematically determine the cause. Go to the well pump pressure switch and remove the cover on the pressure switch and verify if the contacts are open or closed. If they are open look at the pressure gauge. Do you have pressure or not? If not then manually with an insulated screwdriver close the points in the pressure switch. Does the pump now attempt to run and do you get some pressure? If yes, then the bottom side of the pressure switch is frozen. If no, then you need to verify that you have voltage to the pressure switch. If you have voltage and the pump did not run with the pressure switch points manually held closed there is a problem with the pump itself or the wire going to the pump. Do these things and if this does not isolate your preblem we will proceed into more trouble shooting.

[Suemo]

I still have no water. e figured this much out. It runs out in about 15 gallons. I have checked all connections and I am satisfied it is not frozen. The pump is not running and I would feel better if it were.
Our well is 305 ft deep has the total of 7 streams running into it.The pump is evidently sitting in a running stream The water level is 5-20 below th surface of the ground. I do not think I could run out of water.
The water i ran for the livestock came from inside the house. Even though we have frost proof faucets they freeze in the winter. usually thaw them by pouring hot water over them. They are set in gravel about 3-4 feet into the ground. Two of them bear full north wind exposure. I was told when I moved here that frost proof faucets were worthless. I do think they need to be replaced and of very good quality- the one made in china did not last a year. the others are 12-15 years old.
The water has just now suddenly came on as it suddenly went off this morning.
I am listening please keep the comments coming.

Did I tell you I have a sink hole around my water pipes where they come in and exit the well house?
This started some years ago. Pipes froze and burst in a well house with 6 inch walls, 6 inch fiberglass insulation plus 3 inches of rigid insulation. Temperature had always stayed a steady 50 degrees..Freezing occurred because the ground dropped below the foundation, below the pipes! So this has been a project of finding what would last in this hole as it gets deeper each year or two. This winter I added the fleeces of 4 large lambs to fill the gap. I think I will pull all that out and see what I can see. The interesting thing about this sink hole is the extremely frigid air that pours into it from underground! The last time I had the hole completely bare the ground had dropped about 18 inches below the pipes. Everything we put in the hole disappears sooner or later. The fleeces, this is the second time I have used them, seem to stay longer than anything.

[agmantoo]

Suemo, you posted your last response 3 minutes after I posted above. Did you see my response? If so, you are a mighty fast typist.

[Suemo]

No I missed that for as soon as I finished typing I went out to find out the problem. You info is invaluable! I will try to put that in my memory for saving steps if this happens again.
This time the water was apparently frozen though not real hard under ground. I pulled out all the fleece insulation then went on the outside of the well house and got a flashlight and surveyed what I could not see inside.
My sink hole has enlarged itself and is now moving under the concrete floor of the well house. It must go back under 1-2 feet.That is where the cold air was hitting the pipes, i guess or maybe where it had sunk outside the well house. I took the only thing I had to fill the holes, wet ashes from 3 years ago that had been stored in a barrel. I pushed the ashes as far as I could under the floor then heaped them up outside. Lastly I recovered the pipes from inside. We shall see how long this will last. Sometimes it sinks quickly and other times it can go for years.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
Suemo

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Suemo, you posted your last response 3 minutes after I posted above. Did you see my response? If so, you are a mighty fast typist.

[agmantoo]

Suemo,
Why not get a lot of the styro-foam packing peanuts and put them in some heavy poly bags and cram them into the sink hole? Being light they should remain where you place them and there will be some insulation benefit from the foam and the trapped air pockets. They should not saturate with water and therefore maintain the insulating qualities. Wet insulation will be of no benefit.

[Suemo]

I had to use what I had available. I might try the peanuts if I find some -enough to do anything..The crack under the floor were only about 1-2 high/deep and the peanuts would have to be put in loose.
I never know how big the hole will be. One time it went from 6 inches across to 18 inches and 2 feet deep . that all happened in a very short time. We started by putting soil, it disappeared, then sawdust, then the fleece which lasted longer Since the fleece stayed in place the soil dropped outside of the building. So we filled it up with rabbit litter since the ground was frozen. I try to keep in mind that this may be going to a stream of water so did not put the litter directly around the pipes but outside the building
Needless to say the soil is very loose there but I try to keep a piece of plywood over the area because it seems if it is exposed to the elements it will drop faster. There was originally 2 feet of clay soil over those pipes outside, that dropped to a foot below the pipes. One part of the sinkhole is heading for the road. i park my car over another part of it. The ground there has sunk maybe 6 inches. I figure there is a cave or something somewhere,. Would love to know what is going on and why and what I could expect over time
Suemo

Originally Posted by agmantoo

Suemo,
Why not get a lot of the styro-foam packing peanuts and put them in some heavy poly bags and cram them into the sink hole? Being light they should remain where you place them and there will be some insulation benefit from the foam and the trapped air pockets. They should not saturate with water and therefore maintain the insulating qualities. Wet insulation will be of no benefit.

[greenhaven]

I don't think your problem is one of freezing. Rather, I would bet it is a problem with your pressure tank bladder. It fits the symptoms of having water, losing it after 15 gallions or so, then taking awhile to get your water back. Freezing would not come and go like that. I don't think.

Inspect your pressure tank, or have it done.

[Suemo]

Originally Posted by greenhaven

I don't think your problem is one of freezing. Rather, I would bet it is a problem with your pressure tank bladder. It fits the symptoms of having water, losing it after 15 gallions or so, then taking awhile to get your water back. Freezing would not come and go like that. I don't think.

Inspect your pressure tank, or have it done.

That is something I have concerns about. It is an X-tol and now going on 10-12 years old maybe older. I do not want to spend that much money on another one. Do I have to have bladder/tank, can I not have one like the poultry houses have? I know the water was frozen below "ground" to some extent, but I have had problems with the pressure tank in the past. I top it off with a few lbs of air ever so often.
Suemo

[greenhaven]

Originally Posted by Suemo

Do I have to have bladder/tank, can I not have one like the poultry houses have? Suemo

I don't know the answer to that. I am pretty sure that if you want running water through the faucets in your house you must have a pressure tank.

Of course, if you want to just haul it into the house, and you can get water at your barn spigots, well, you have a patch, then. Tough stuff, though, hauling water in the winter.

[jnap31]

Dont need a bladder if you live on a slope I set up my 1500 gallon tank I bought from busybee and catch roof water it is gravity flow to the barn for the critters just got the water bill it was $26 normally it is $50 whoooopeee next step will be getting water from the well to lower it more and then maybe eliminate it just worried about the well going dry in droughts no truck to haul water since the tranny went out. I hate that minimum use fee though even if I only need city water two months out of the year I have to pay a min fee every month.

[jnap31]

Oh yeah it was frozen the last few days had to haul 20 gall a day from the wood stove 300 feet to the barn LOL that was no fun glad it's warming up