Shoot holes in this,,,,long, theoretical

[retiredbop]

This is the post that I just deleted by mistake.

The theoretical homestead is constantly evolving. In an effort to avoid unnecessary “learning mistakes” I would appreciate your input and suggestions. Please consider this your opportunity to assist in the planning and evolution of a truly diverse and sustainable homestead.

As some of you may remember, this whole thing started with a dream of about 5 acres, a few chickens, and a couple of goats. But everything I read about small farms and sustainability emphasizes that diversification of critters is a big key. So I've started adding flocks/herds as ideas flit into my head.

I am now at the point of at least 20 acres, preferably 40-60. Some running water or a pond would be nice. A 16'x24' guest cabin where Cindy and I will live while I build the 1800sq ft main house. Assorted outbuildings as needed.

As I said, we started with a small flock of laying hens in mind, say 6-10. Then I started thinking that it wouldn't be that much more work to add about 50 birds for the freezer. Work them in as 2 or 3 separate crops spread out over the year.

And of course, our goats. Probably Oberhasli, as they are on the watch list for the breed conservancy. It started out as 2 for milk, and maybe to play with making cheese. This has grown to somewhere between 6-12 for lots of cheese. The whey would be fed to the pig(s). The wethers would become freezer fillers. Does would be rotated in one or two a year, and the rest sold off for dairy goats somewhere else.

The pigs will probably be either Gloucester Old Spots or Red Tamworths, both of which are on the watch list for the breed conservancy. Originally I was thinking of buying piglets at spring auction, but I've been thinking lately of keeping a sow and selling off her excess piglets. They are supposed to be wonderful for inclusion in a rotating pasture plan.

My dear wife has become infatuated with the fiber arts. She talks about wanting to spin her own yarn and make stuff from it. So a few sheep have crept into the picture. Probably Southdowns or some other smaller breed from the watch list. Come to think of it, a lamb or two in the freezer wouldn't be too bad either. Besides which, they are supposed to be good pasture companions for the cows as they both eat different stuff. Doesn't make sense to me, but then I'm thinking of the cattle/sheep wars in the old west. Let's say 6-12 sheep.

Which brings us to cows. A couple of small beefs in the freezer each year would pretty much fill out the menu. Milk would be used almost entirely for calves and pigs. Again I am leaning toward smaller, more manageable sized critters. Something like Highlands, Dexters, or Devons. A cow, a yearling for the freezer, and a calf.

And this is where my imagination really gets the reins in it's teeth. A couple of smaller draft horses to do the farm hauling, logging for firewood, and pulling the wagon to town now and then. I'm leaning toward Fjords, but when my imagination runs away with me I keep coming back to the image of a pair of hitched American Cream Drafts. Two mares and a stallion. Breed one mare each year and sell off the young.

All of the breeds on this homestead would be selected for their ability to thrive on forage and second for breed conservation. With the inclusion of a large garden and a small orchard we would be able to put away most of the staples for a family of 5 or 6 for a significant savings. But what if we wanted to make money with this farm also?

Some of you may remember that I have a rather lengthy drive to work, 70 miles. This gives one a lot of time to think, and thinking can sometimes be dangerous in such a fertile and flighty mind as mine. Take yesterday, for instance. Don't ask me where the idea came from, but all of the sudden I'm running the possibility of raising holiday turkeys “under contract” for pre-registered clients. Sort of like a CSA.

Now I'm fairly certain that I don't want to start large scale gardening to support a CSA. But how about applying the same concept to raising livestock to provide natural meats to more conscientious consumers? I've checked Eat Wild and there isn't a farm within 50 miles of me that is doing this. And I live less than 10 miles from a population center of 30,000. I would consider that a sizable market. I'll have to find a processor, since I have no intention of getting into that end of the work. Better yet, a list of processors and the clients can take their livestock straight there from the farm. (Or I can, for a fee.)

But, as I haven't even bought the land yet, and most of you have much more recent experience than I (it's been 33 years since I milked a goat) I figured I'd try to make this a community effort, where I can benefit from your experiences. After all, the wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

[minnikin1]

Just do it.

You won't know what you like and what you don't like until you try.
Nobody can tell you which of those endeavors you will enjoy, or not.

Raising animals is a very personal, subjective experience. You might find that 2 goats is wonderful but more than 3 will drive you crazy. You might decide, after easily sweeping up goat and sheep pellets, that shoveling cow pie is not worth the effort.

Dreaming and planning are so important. But as long as you are dwelling in the theoretical plane, you are limited to someone else's perspective.
Doing, however, is the only way you will ever separate your wheat from the chaff.

[whiterock]

What works for your neighbor may not work for you and vice versa. The only way you will know is to try it and find out. Animals can be sold if they don't work for you, and replaced with something that does.

[Ernie]

I'll share some of the lessons I've learned since I started ...

1. Start small and build up. My first year I added goats, chickens, a half-acre garden, beehives, and fruit trees. Instead of doing anything excellently I did everything poorly. Still it was a great learning experience and most everything appears to have survived despite the neglect and inexperience. So I'm entering the following year with a greater knowledge, but it would have been simpler to start off a little smaller.

2. Don't swing at every pitch. I found myself saying, "if only I had this ..." and then the next day someone at the feed store would mention they were selling one and I'd buy it ... only to find that months later I didn't need it and had paid too much. There will always be opportunities. Put some thought into everything before you reach into your pocket. Also consider that if a man has three cows, he's not going to sell you the best one. He's going to sell you the worst one. Then if you want to get rid of said cow, you'll find that everyone else in the cow market is smarter than you and doesn't want it.

3. The work isn't that hard, but many things have a sense of urgency. For a man in good health, getting out and working 16 hours on the farm can be a pleasure. However timing really matters. The tomatoes that need picking today will not wait until tomorrow ... something will have drilled holes in them, or taken a bite out of each and every one. When the goat needs milking, you can fudge the schedule by about 15 minutes on either side of the normal time ... but not much more or she's going to be unhappy and be more difficult to deal with. When the chickens need to be put up for the night, get out there and do it right away, not at the next commercial. Or something else will come and have a nice chicken dinner and you wont' get eggs OR meat.

4. Learn to focus on a single task. Organize. During the warm summer months there were so many projects I had that were in various states of completion. Now here in the middle of winter I managed to knock out about half of them when if I'd have just focused on them one at a time I'd probably have completed them all. Doing different things at different times makes the work seem more like play and less like work, but a certain amount of stick-to-it-ness is required to ever complete things.

5. My 1 year business plan has been extended out to 5 years and may not come to fruition for 10 years. Accept this. There's a reason so many of those "opportunities" mentioned earlier are there ... it's because other people doing what I'm doing are busy going bankrupt. Most of it is because of their reliance on machinery versus calorie power, but there are valid reasons they are losing money. You can't raise, feed, slaughter, and sell a chicken for the $2.59 that the grocery store charges and only 1% of the consumer population in most areas are sophisticated enough in their tastes to be able to tell the difference and willing to spend the money on one of yours. Same with fruits and vegetables. The American concept of food is cheap and plentiful and the corporate agriculture conglomerates have you beat on that.

Those are my lessons learned from starting. Hope they help you some. I'd also warn you away from starting a CSA. If you're like me, you knew a thimble's worth of stuff when a gallon bucket is required in order to make money. It's going to take time to learn that stuff. Take the time. The farm does not need to be profitable in the first year, and likely as not wouldn't be. If you make a lot of commitments to the customers in your area in your first year and then let them down, they'll remember that forever and then when you really are doing well and producing, they'll only remember that you let them down.

Good luck. It's a great enterprise to be beginning.

[Pink_Carnation]

Everything sounds very ambitious...I would start slow.

On the raising the turkeys for people I would plan on getting them butchered also because the ones willing to take them in themselves will probably raise them also.

[ricky]

brother any thing can be done with the 100% co op from your wife. it all sounds doable but your only one man you'll need two. it makes a big diff if she is 100% in to it and shares what ever she can to make it work. if not then it will be another job working around her all so one man and one woman can move mountains togather if there a TEAM

[canadiangirl]

"But what if we wanted to make money with this farm also?"

This is the big one. Most of us can provide a good diversity for ourselves but the little bit of this and that we have extra is hard to pay the bills with. A 30,000 population is pretty good. Are there farmer's markets near by? If so go and see what everyone else is selling and take a good look at the clients and what they are buying. Even farms who do farm gate selling often do a weekly market to get more customers especially if they are not on a busy route. I go to 3 different markets and they are all different. One market is super organic and pricey, one is more blue collar and folks looking for good value and other is a mix of the two. Collect loyal customers by doing what you do well, then try to fill more and more of their needs.
Here is a farmer's market newsletter you can subscribe to for free.
http://www.scissortailproductionsllc...TSubscribe.htm

[Liese]

Ernie, that is one great post - certainly sums things up here too; Jack of all Trades and Master of none and I find that partially completed projects seem to sap my energy so am learning to finish one before starting another.

For fiber sheep - there are sites with info about sheep wool and the uses for each breed. As a general rule Southdown is short staple and not as easy to spin as say Dorset (also a down breed) but for interest look at Jacobs - I have a few in our flock and they have nice temperments, lovely fleece, are quite hardy and nice feet - after you get sheep you'll really appreciate the last.

Liese, www.littlemeadowsfarm.net

[Honorine]

Well here's a Oberhasli buck for you, in PA too, gotta start somewhere.

http://classifieds.agriscape.com/ad/123759/en/

[heelpin]

"When you are inspired by some great purpose, some extraordinary project, all your thoughts break their bounds. Dormant forces, faculties and talents become alive, and you discover yourself to be a greater person by far than you ever dreamed yourself to be." --Pantanjali

[Beef11]

Diversification is great to a point but there is a limit. Don't spread yourself so thin over so many projects that they become inefficient. For example 1 hog grows slower than two and four take about as much time as two. You can go on but at some point your facilities and resources become depleted. Find a balance. I have alot of experience with cattle and strongly recommend herd size being dictated by breeding groups. For example a bull costs as much to buy and maintain whether he breeds 3 head a year or 25 spread costs over as many units as possible. There are alternatives like running with the neighbors bull or ai but you get my point. I really look for complementarity and efficient use of time in my enterprises. Many ventures seem really neat and somewhat profitable but they can also consume much of your time thus taking away from other profitable ventures. If you are going to get something with a short leash (milk goats) go all out, it is aggravating to stay home from a trip because you have to milk one goat. Look for things that go well together for example cattle & sheep, Goats & pigs, Pumpkins beans &corn, woods & hogs, rabbits & worms. I hope this helps

[wy_white_wolf]

Just wondering, with all you have planned, when are you going to just enjoy the homestead?

[retiredbop]

Originally Posted by heelpin

"When you are inspired by some great purpose, some extraordinary project, all your thoughts break their bounds. Dormant forces, faculties and talents become alive, and you discover yourself to be a greater person by far than you ever dreamed yourself to be." --Pantanjali

LOL, hardly the way I have ever looked at myself.

[retiredbop]

Originally Posted by wy_white_wolf

Just wondering, with all you have planned, when are you going to just enjoy the homestead?

Excellent question, and actually one that I ask myself often. This spring we start the journey of a thousand steps, with a single tractor and 24 assorted birds. The future of the theoretical homestead depends on the success of that venture.

[Jim S.]

Sounds pretty typical of what I hear from most of the back to the landers who buy land in my county. There are a number of flaws, starting with your 20 acres. You list enough animals for 100 acres if the farm is to be largely self-sufficient, so your livestock is not going to survive on forage for long. It is a lot more expensive if you cannot produce your own needs, but then we like to help out the back to the landers by selling them hay and whatever else they need, as it helps our bottom lines here.

Your animal breeds are also typical of the back to the lander movement, though every single one of them is atypical of production ag and so they will have little value to most folks outside the clique of back to the landers. So, it can be hard to find nearby buyers of similar insight who will open their wallets. I have seen many back to the land folks take steep losses on exotics when they finally throw in the towel, because there is not and never has been a ready local market for them at the prices they command ... but to each his own.

If "there isn't a farm within 50 miles of me that is doing this," my first question is, WHY NOT? You'd better answer that one right off the bat. It just MIGHT BE that there's no market. I'd bet on it. There is no local market where I live, either. Nobody cares about healthy food here, they care about cheap food. There is ONE GUY doing this, he is 30 miles from me, and he is the only one who has been able to make a go of it. Now, THAT is low demand.

Your plan sounds perfect for someone who wants a hobby farm to look at and play on, but it is really fatally flawed as a business model, unless you can positively identify a solid and willing market for your goods, willing meaning folks who will put up cash now on the prospect of eating later. (Yes, even before you have the animals, if possible.)

I am being hard on you because I have known literally 20-plus families who have wandered out of the city to my county and tried just what you are planning. It's a neat Internet-fueled vision but they fail time and again to ground their places in reality. Fact is, if this was the successful production model, it would be mainstreamed. These folks stay an average of 3 years, and if they are very, very lucky, they get out of it about even (might be harder to do that now, with land values in flux). Most lose money. Of course, by then, they are so tired, broken down, and so worn out from worrying about life lived in the economic red zone that they are glad to get out at a loss. We come in and help them out, then, by buying bargain equipment, livestock and land, often just ahead of the banker's foreclosure.

So, 4 big pieces of reality-based advice:

1.) Get your animal breeds in line with the mainstream. You will do a lot better selling apples to folks who want apples.

2.) Right-size your operation to the land you buy. Start your farm by talking to actual farmers in your area, not university eggheads or some Net source that has no connection to local markets and events. People sometimes say, gee no one raises XXXXXX where I am but me...man, I do NOT want to be that person. It usually means markets and support will be hard to find.

3.) Forget the horses, buy a small tractor with loader and brush mower. Trade out your hay cutting with a fellow farmer. That is usually most cost effective on places 200 acres or less in size.

4.) Learn what PAYS and what DOESN'T, in your specific area, beforehand as much as you can. It's a low return on investment biz, so don't be making big bets on wild-eyed schemes that will not be pretty darned sure payoffs. That is, if this is to be run as a business farm, and not a hobby place.

Be tight and be stingy with your money. Explore all options before you buy. If you can sweat some and get it done more cheaply, sweat. But if it turns out to be a better economic deal to hire it done or barter it done -- then DO THAT (hay gets cut on my place for a half-share...all I do is pick up my bales when it is done...because it is cheaper that way). Look for your best value in this low ROI biz.

Good luck.

[Ernie]

Jim, you are very correct on #4 (and the rest as well). When I first started I had a big vision of an apple orchard. I wanted desperately to be an orchardist. I moved in, planted a couple of hundred dollars worth of apple trees and then discovered that the area I'd chosen because it was so good for apples ... is covered in orchards that aren't making any money. Plus the federal regulations now covering cider are so invasive that I can't make any money at that either. So I've had to scrap the apple idea (but not the trees) and look at other venues.

Would have saved some money and time had I done my homework beforehand. Ah well. At least my family and friends will enjoy a lot of apples.

[sammyd]

I have to agree with starting small.
Get a few of the basic things and see how you can fit them together. Pasturing chickens with the cows and so forth.
Look at your markets if you want to make some money feel out the area. I can't give away eggs a $1 a dozen even when eggs are over $1 at the store. Several factors, there are all ready guys selling eggs at 50cent a dozen! there are folks afraid of seeing a blood spot in the egg, there are folks afraid of brown eggs, there are folks who want to see your feed tags and if you're not feeding organic feed don't want your eggs. I've seen the smallest palest homegrown eggs selling for 1.25 at the Amish store but I'm not Amish so that's not an option.
If you are selling birds you probably need to have them dressed. Is there a place nearby that will do it cheap or are you willing to a; get a license and insurance to protect yourself or b; take a chance on doing it out of the kindness of your heart and having someone sue you off the farm when they mishandle the meat and blame you?

With all those animals you are either going to be raising a lot of feed or buying a lot of feed. It's all fine and dandy to think about asking a neighbor to help out but you can bet his will get done first and yours will get done when he can. This can lead to a poor quality crop or no crop at all. I lost 5 acres of hay this way 2 years ago, not much by some standards but enough to get me to invest in my own equipment.

I'd forget horses till way late in the game. And if you want to try some field work with them you can hook up a small tractor to most old horse equipment until the horses show up.

Thinking too much can be dangerous, my wife tells me that all the time when I come up with stuff.
Slow and small to start is almost never a bad idea.

[ArmyDoc]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

This is the post that I just deleted by mistake.

The theoretical homestead is constantly evolving. In an effort to avoid unnecessary “learning mistakes” I would appreciate your input and suggestions. Please consider this your opportunity to assist in the planning and evolution of a truly diverse and sustainable homestead.

As some of you may remember, this whole thing started with a dream of about 5 acres, a few chickens, and a couple of goats. But everything I read about small farms and sustainability emphasizes that diversification of critters is a big key. So I've started adding flocks/herds as ideas flit into my head.

I am now at the point of at least 20 acres, preferably 40-60. Some running water or a pond would be nice. A 16'x24' guest cabin where Cindy and I will live while I build the 1800sq ft main house. Assorted outbuildings as needed.
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Which brings us to cows. A couple of small beefs in the freezer each year would pretty much fill out the menu. Milk would be used almost entirely for calves and pigs. Again I am leaning toward smaller, more manageable sized critters. Something like Highlands, Dexters, or Devons. A cow, a yearling for the freezer, and a calf.
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But, as I haven't even bought the land yet, and most of you have much more recent experience than I (it's been 33 years since I milked a goat) I figured I'd try to make this a community effort, where I can benefit from your experiences. After all, the wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

Sounds ambitious. My recommendation is start with one thing at a time and build slowly one by one. Try to have a general idea of where you want to go, but be willing to change as you go.

If you can afford 20+ acres, you will certainly have more options than if you just by 5. Since it is a potential rate limiting step, I would buy as much land as you can afford. But don't stretch yourself too thin - there will be lots of unexpected expenses and you will want to have a cusion of funds to tap into when you decide to try something new, make improvements to the land etc.

Again, go slow. I would pick one type of animal you think you would enjoy the most and start with a few animals only. As you gain experience then increase the numbers. If you are planning on pasture animals, get your pastures and fences ready first.

Lastly, just something to think about. A cow, even a small cow, is a large animal. A 1000 pound cow (which would not be a very large cow) will give about 500-600 pounds hanging weight and probably upwards of 300 pounds or more of cut beef. One a year will probably do you, unless you have a very large family. But raising another one or two for sale, either on the hoof or by the quarter may pay for the expenses of the one you raise for yourself.

Best of luck, and keep us informed as you move down the path. We would all like to hear how things turn out - what works, what doesn't, what you'd do the same or differently.

[retiredbop]

I want to thank ALL of you for your responses. It is exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.

As I said, we are starting with tractored chickens in the backyard this spring. That and the garden should keep us busy for the next 3 years or so, until we move onto the land. At that time we will add our first goats.

Jim, your analysis was very insightful.

Based on what I am reading here so far I think what I'll do is add an animal one year in family use numbers, then possibly increase the numbers the next year if I like the animal AND the way it is working out.

Using that plan a new animal would be introduced about every third year. The primary focus being to enjoy the homestead and the animals. Making money off them will be a secondary consideration.

Thanks again, and keep the thoughts coming.

[Jim S.]

Yep, Mike, you gotta enjoy the animals whether you make money or not, because it is a lot of work. People will come to your place and say, "Wow! It's like you live on vacation all year!" Yeah, sure... that's because they don't see your day-to-day manual labor required to keep even a minimum operation going. If you think you'll love it but you find out you really don't, you will find that out within a couple years. Most people I know simply have no stomach for the work required. Be ready to work!

Some quick additional suggestions for you starting out. If I was coming at it fresh again, I would say to forget the term "homesteader" altogether for now. Start out by trying to be a farmer first, then evolve to homesteading goals like self-sufficiency and etc. later, as step two. Begin by concentrating on two things: Do I have customers for what I want to do, and how can I become the best and most efficient at animal husbandry that I can. Efficiency is key to low ROI profits.

Once you have your land, I cannot over-emphasize the absolute importance of apprenticing yourself to a longtime successful farmer who raises stuff you'd like to raise, or at least of making sure you buy the coffee at the local coffeeshop every morning and ask the farmers there plenty of respectful questions. Put yourself in the position of student, and learn from local folks first, moreso than from the Net or university types. There's a place for the latter, but what you seek is a model for success in your micro-environment that you can learn better from the former. That is how I did it. I am not a homesteader; I am, however, a farmer. What you learn from locals with long experience will come to your mind again and again as the years pass. My mentor/teacher is now deceased, yet even 18 years later, he still speaks to me in all my farm decisions today. It's really because of him that I make posts like I did yesterday, and try to help those folks who wish to be helped. (Many don't...lol...then I buy their stuff at the forced auction.)

I want to compliment you on starting with small animals, the chickens. WISE! I'd suggest rabbits as a second possible small venture, IF THERE IS A LOCAL MARKET. There are folks I know here who get $6 and $10 (two different farms) each for a dressed rabbit. If you can carry 40-50, you kill and dress on certain Saturday mornings with pickup in the afternoon. You can offer the option of freezing the meat for customer, too. Easy to handle rabbits, and they are a lot easier to process than chickens. If you have the MARKET, the fecundity of rabbits can make some decent money. You also can raise them from portable coops, if you desire.

Goats are a good next step from small animals. I raise meat goats now, myself, after a decade with a cow-calf operation. My advice to you for dual use purposes is to get larger framed dairy breed does (Saanen comes right to mind; there are others), and run 2 bucks -- a dairy buck for your replacement does and a heavy Boer for your sale kids. Those Boer cross meat kids will bring more at sale time. Heavy Boer and Boer/dairy cross goats sold on the farm here are bringing $1.25 a pound liveweight. Once again, is there a local market? You will have to check. Your goats do NOT have to be registered to be sold as meat goats or even dairy goats. Unregistered stock is the lowest-cost way to get in as a "commercial" producer. Yes, registered stock sells higher, but there are also lots of associated added input costs with registered stock.

When it gets time for cattle, I am going to tell you flat out (and many here will likely disagree) that the best cow for you economically as a family milk cow is a grade Holstein that has been bred to a registered Angus bull. The resulting calf is a high demand product that qualifies as certified Angus, and it would be easy to find a family here to sell half to and cover your half's costs for the freezer. It is a mainstream product. There are many ways to get this breeding done without owning a bull, if you have networked with local farmers and know them. I never owned a bull the whole time I was cow-calf. I worked it out with a local farmer where each fall he delivered a young inexperienced bull for me to overwinter, then I got the service and he got the weight gain. In spring, he'd pick the bull up and sell him as a herd sire. By that fall, my calves off the last bull would drop (running counter to the normal market cycle), so by the annual spring feeder shortage, I'd have weaned calves ready to go at higher prices. Then the new bull would arrive. One other advantage to this is that I could calve out in 10 days and be done.

I am also timing my goat kiddings to take advantage of market highs. So far, so good. Be innovative when your sharp pencil tells you it works for you. Be conservative when that pencil says it doesn't.

If I can help you further with questions you may have, please PM me.