A locked gate on your driveway? Or not...

[Wayne02]

We had some tragic murders here in Western WA on Christmas eve. Six people, (six generations) murdered by family members in a small rural area. The background and gruesome details of how it transpired are in this article.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22420704/

911 was called somewhere during the course of the murders and deputies were sent to the property but found a locked gate...

On Christmas Eve, King County sheriff's deputies had a chance to uncover the slayings of six people at a home outside Carnation, but a locked gate stopped them from going to the front door.

Should it have?

The case is raising questions about whether the two deputies should have done more after a 911 hang-up call summoned them to the rural home, which isn't visible from the gate. Policies vary among law enforcement agencies on how to respond to 911 hang-ups. In most situations, a dispatcher first attempts to call back and speak to the caller.

In cases in which dispatchers can't reach the caller, or something sounds suspicious, police agencies require responding officers to make a "reasonable effort" to make personal contact with the caller, said Don Pierce, executive director of the Washington Association of Sheriffs and Police Chiefs.

Police did not need a warrant to enter the Carnation property, Sheriff's Sgt. John Urquhart said.

Urquhart wouldn't say Thursday whether the deputies violated department policy, which, similar to other law enforcement agencies around the state, requires that officers investigating 911 hang-up calls to try to find out what happened and why.

"The general, overreaching policy is to track down that phone and find out why that phone called 911," Urquhart said. "The policy is really clear. There shouldn't be any question about it."

The deputies were dispatched after someone inside the home called 911 at 5:13 p.m. Monday. No one spoke during the call, which lasted about 10 seconds. The dispatcher noted: "A lot of yelling in the background ... sounded more like party noise than angry, heated arguing."

The first two patrol cars available were sent to the property minutes later, and the dispatcher made two calls to the residence, but the phone went to voice mail each time, Urquhart said.

Both deputies arrived at the scene about 5:45 p.m. and noted the "gate is locked, unable to gain access," according to the dispatcher's log.

Wednesday morning, a co-worker concerned about Judy Anderson's absence from her job as a Carnation postal worker stopped to check. She walked around the gate to the home and found the bodies, triggering a second 911 call...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/..._hangup28.html

Many in the community are in an uproar over the deputies not attempting to go beyond the gate. Others feel that the property owner takes on the responsibility of maybe not being able to receive emergency help when they choose to have a locked gate on their property to keep people out.

What do you think?

Do you have a locked gate on your driveway? Is it your expectation that when you call 911, emergency personnel will go over, around, or through the gate to get to you?

[GrannyG]

When DH's grandaughter and her husband had a huge fight, he was beating her up, 911 was called. He works on a ranch and they live at a ranch house. I called the owner's wife and asked her to open the gate for the police...she refused...she does not like the grandaughter...the police cut the lock off the gate to go in...no questions asked..

[RoseGarden]

I will add a similar story.... no one being beat up but rather an elderly person needing an ambulance for a medical emergency. The ambulance and fire truck were dispatched, found the gate locked, and cut the lock off immediately. I was told by someone that most police and fire dept. keep bolt cutters in their trunks, don't know if it's true but it should be mandatory.

[james dilley]

The Gate is Locked, But then again the neighbors have A key, And the S O will cut the locks/ chains. I use A chain on the gate therefore easy to get A new chain!

[Janis Sauncy]

From what I understand, the family members in Carnation were already dead when the deputies arrived (from information from the confession of one or both of the killers), so the locked gate, in this case, wouldn't have prevented the outcome.

I have, in the past, had a gate at the end of my driveway which I kept locked periodically. I, too, was under the impression that in the case of an emergency, the chain/lock would be cut to allow entrance. Also, on my gate, you could actually lift the one end of the gate up off the thingy (hinge?)that was attached to the post and open it that way. I found this out because my ex-husband did it......and he was the one I was mostly trying to keep out.

I suspect the locked gate issue is going to be in debate now because of this crime. Although it's a moot point for this family, it might not be for the next one.

Janis

[Maura]

Unfortunately, policy is not written until after a confusing, and often tragic, situation takes place. In this case, do the police respect the locked gate, or do they assume a worst case scenario. Probably, every community needs to decide this for themselves.

I can certainly understand the police not cutting the chain/tearing down the gate since the 911 call was a hang up, followed by two no-answers. How many people on this forum would be hostile to police breaking through a locked gate if there was no real emergency, just a toddler playing with the phone?

To answer your question, I would expect emergency personnel to break through a locked gate, but I don't have a locked gate.

[Pink_Carnation]

They probably were dead before the police got there...however it wasn't the police that found them. A co-worker came to the home to check on them when the grandma didn't show up for work.

I would be inclined to not have a locked gate...it is only going to keep out honest people.

[jordan]

This strikes me as really touchy legal ground. If I have a gate locked I have an expectation of that privacy being respected. I also can see the ramifications if something were put on the books in regards to law enforcement and locked gates. The potential for constitutional abuse is mind boggling. And we all know that that line has been crossed.
On the other hand, I do feel that emergency vehicles and personel (fire/ambulance) absolutely should cut through. Their lack of "legal" standing, makes it more acceptable to me.

[Shirley]

I think: If the emergency medical guys had not cut the chain on my front gate to come in I would be dead.
I had called 911 then laid in wait for them. The chain wrapped around the gate was not locked but it looked locked to them so they cut it off.

[MariaAZ]

Originally Posted by Wind in Her Hair

I would however expect in the case of a 911 call for that locked gate to be disregarded.

Same here. Living in the city, perhaps I view this differently. To me, a locked gate is no different than window bars and door locks. We have bars on our windows and keep our doors locked at all times. Around here, the fire department & police will cut bars and break down doors in case of emergency. I know that last one first-hand. M-I-L fell and broke her leg. When the fire department arrived, they were able to jimmy the security door open, and broke the wood door out of the frame in order to gain access.

[pancho]

I used to have a locked gate across the road leading to my house, I later sold the place. It was kept locked except when we went in or out, otherwise it was kept locked 24 hours a day. Also had guard dogs completely surrounding my house. You might say I didn't like to be disturbed. A couple of times the law came out but they just sounded their siren at the gate and waited. If no one came out they eventually left.

[Country Lady]

I haven't followed all the reports on this horrible crime, but I'm curious about one thing. If the gate was locked, how did the co-worker get in to check on them? We've talked about getting a gate, and would like one for security reasons. However, we've decided against getting one at this time, for several reasons being, emergency vehicles, UPS, propane truck, good neighbors dropping by. The list goes on. So far, we haven't had any problem with uninvited guest driving down our drive.

[susieM]

I think this is more about lazy police than locked gates.

[Janis Sauncy]

I read where she went "around" the gate, which would probably indicate that, although there was a gate across the driveway, fencing probably didn't connect to it. That's how I would understand that.

But who knows? Maybe the co-worker climbed over. That's certainly an option if you're not set on driving through.

Janis

[ceresone]

A properly installed gate cannot be lifted off the hinges--one is suppose to be installed up--the top one down--this prohibits lifting.
Just a aside to those with gates...

[BillHoo]

So, using the logic of the police in question, if a murder occurred on a regular home with no gate....


<Knock! Knock! Knock!>
POLICE: Hello? Is anybody in there? The neighbors reported a murder in progress.
MURDERER (from other side of closed door): Excuse me? Can't you see the door is locked? Please respect my privacy and go away.
POLICE: OK. Sorry. Have a nice day.
MURDERER: Yea, you too buddy.

[Janis Sauncy]

Lesson learned.

I will be putting a gate (actually two 8-foot ones) across my driveway this year and it will be done right.

I haven't decided yet about a lock. I have a neighbor that I know for a fact used to come over here snooping around before we moved in and I've had my suspicions about him even after we moved in. I would definitely like to give him the "message." If I decide to go with a lock, I might just have it locked when no one is at home. Might be hard to do with another driver in the family now, though.

We'll see.

Janis

[Tana Mc]

Our family is part of the rural fire/ems dept. A locked gate doesn't slow us down for long. We have a policy that if we are wrong, we will replace the chain or lock --- later.
During a fast traveling grass fire, we routinely take out fences. Some folks are very upset and others are grateful we got ahead of the fire and saved their house or barn.
We have had a grass fire moving with a brisk 35mph wind across a high grass pasture heading for a neighbor's newly baled hay. Flames were higher than the truck and it was running fast. The guy with the unused pasture did not want to let us in the gate to stop it....... he got a whole new gate....

It is interesting that this topic should come up right now. We had unwanted visitors on our farm last night. My dogs were barking and I usually ignore them because most of the time they are barking at the deer traveling thru. Something was different in their barking tones last night so I got up (in my night gown!) and went to see. I interupted someone in a small car trying to figure out how to get gas out of our farm tanks..... They took off but my hubby was able to follow them and get close enough to get a tag number. It was a slow night for law enforcement in our county last night. Before it was over, we had 2 sets of sheriff deputies and a state trooper exploring the farm.
They recommended a gate for at night since we are waaaaay out here.....


Tana Mc

[ericjeeper]

Originally Posted by Janis Sauncy

Lesson learned.

I will be putting a gate (actually two 8-foot ones) across my driveway this year and it will be done right.

I haven't decided yet about a lock. I have a neighbor that I know for a fact used to come over here snooping around before we moved in and I've had my suspicions about him even after we moved in. I would definitely like to give him the "message." If I decide to go with a lock, I might just have it locked when no one is at home. Might be hard to do with another driver in the family now, though.

We'll see.

Janis

Locking it only when you are away is a sure clue to local thieves.. hey they are out of town.. lets go break in.
either use it 24/7 or not at all.. IMHO

[Janis Sauncy]

Well, I don't have much of value that would be worth stealing. I also have four medium to large-sized (very vocal) dogs that are in the house when no one is at home.

Mostly I would like to have a locked gate to keep the neighbor out when he knows no one is at home.

As it is, twice in the last couple of weeks I've seen him standing at the fence/property line looking over here. And both times were just before dark. I can't say anything because he is on his own property.

It makes me wonder how much "watching" he does that I haven't seen? And he's familiar enough with our routine and the vehicles we (my son and I) drive that he would know when no one is at home.

Not that I have anything to hide (no pot farm here!); I just don't want someone on my property when I'm not here.

Janis