Any electricians around?

[Julia]

We put in electric baseboard heat in a spare room a couple years ago, and it has worked well, but yesterday it blew a breaker and when we looked at it, one of the red top connecting the romex wire to the thermostat wire had melted and burned.

The only thing we can figure is the the connection was loose and arcing (thank god for circuit breakers...), but we cannot figure out how to fix that considering the weight of the two wires involved.

This is a 220 unit, and the romex wire coming in is solid and quite heavy weight. The wire in the thermostat is stranded and lighter weight. We have tried to twist the two wires together, but it's no go---the romex is too stiff, the thermostat wire too flexible. When we did the original work, we just settled on twisting the red cap over the two as tightly as we could, but that seems to have been a mistake.

So what do we do to connect a lighter weight stranded wire with a heavy solid wire?

Thanks much for any help...

[RosewoodfarmVA]

Your problem there is that your wire nut was too big to grab properly. A red wire nut is used for two or more wires 14 or bigger. You need a smaller nut for just one wire and stranded together. You are probably right about it arcing, as the nut wasn't gripping it tight enough. Restrip both wires and wrap the stranded around the copper, then put on a very small nut that will hold it tight. If you can't grab the nut and jerk it off, it's OK.

[deaconjim]

There are many different types of wire connectors around that would work, but unless I could guess what is available where you shop it would be pointless for me to be specific.

What you need is something that will make a strong mechanical connection between the two wires. A regular wire nut can do it, but it is easy to miss. A more certain way of doing it is having something that clamps down on the two wires, such as a split bolt connector


Using this type of connector will require insulating the connector before energizing. Get a roll of self vulcanizing rubber tape (3M brand) and some good vinyl electrical tape (3M brand again). Put one layer of electrical tape directly on the connector, followed by a generous wrap of the self vulcanizing rubber tape, and then by another layer of electrical tape. Do this on all of the connections, not just the one that burned.

If you get your supplies from a good electrical supply place (which I recommend), they can guide you on the proper size and they may be able to suggest something else.

[farminghandyman]

there is size smaller and it is yellow in color,

http://www.gardnerbender.com/Catalog...connectors.pdf

one could use a mini split bolt or a lug and tape it well, if you would feel more comfortable with that, or have some one that knows what there doing come and do it for you.

[Cornhusker]

Unless you have really good insurance, I'd say have an electrician look at it.
It won't cost much, but it's cheaper than a new house.

[OkieDavid]

Compression connectors (such as split bolt) are fine for bare grounds but unless it's in an insulated box designed for that purpose (main lugs in the panel box for example), I personally wouldn't use them "loose" for an energized conductor, wrapped with tape or otherwise.

[palani]

Better get an electrician.

I don't know of any thermostats out there intended to interupt full heater current (unless the thermostat is in the baseboard heater itself and is sized by the manufacturer). A thermostat might pick up a contactor which then picks up the heater current.

[SolarGary]

Originally Posted by palani

Better get an electrician.

I don't know of any thermostats out there intended to interupt full heater current (unless the thermostat is in the baseboard heater itself and is sized by the manufacturer). A thermostat might pick up a contactor which then picks up the heater current.

Around here, many electric baseboard heaters use full line voltage thermostats that switch the full current going to the heater.

I think that if you get the right size wire nut and twist it well, it will be fine. The metal inside part of the wire nut needs to bite the wire well -- you can twist it quite hard. When done, try to pull each wire out of the wire nut separately -- they should not come out even with a good hard tug.

Gary

[comfortablynumb]

Originally Posted by Cornhusker

Unless you have really good insurance, I'd say have an electrician look at it.
It won't cost much, but it's cheaper than a new house.

cant learn unless you try.
it isnt rocket science its just wire nutting 2 wires.

[tiogacounty]

As an electrician, with several decades of commercial and industrial experience, I can only keep offering the same advice. Don't ask for electrical advice online, and if you do, ignore most of what you read. A lot of "advice" is given by folks who haven't got a tiny little bit of a clue, and should step away from the keyboard until something within their sphere of knowledge comes up. In the OP's case this is most likely a simple case of a wire nut that was installed incorrectly. As for a few of the incorrect responses here, MOST pressure connectors referred to as "red wire nuts" are more than capable of connecting the wires in question. The brand I use covers a range from 2-#18 to 5-#12s. the t-stat and the Romex should both be #12s, making a red nut the correct choice. Another post shows a split bolt connector, and gives advice for how to use one. This is like killing misquitos with a 12 guage. there isn't a reason in the world to waste the time and money connecting a low amperage residential splice with a split bolt. It also requires a level of skill that far exceeds the proper installation of a wire nut (which the OP already admits is a issue). The solution is simple. First buy a few 3M brand "performance plus" R/Y wire nuts at your local electrical supply or home center. They are red with a yellow skirt. Now strip both wires to remove 3/4" of insulation. Using your fingers, twist the strands of the stranded wire clockwise until they are compacted and tight with no loose strands in the bundle. Hold the two wires together so that the stranded one is about 1/8" ahead of the solid one. Put the nut on with your other hand while firmly gripping the wires. Twist until the wire nut is tight and you have created one full, visible twist in the wires. That's it. The splice will last forever and never be an issue. Now, if you use junk quality wire nuts, fail to pre-twist the stands on the stranded wire, fail to strip enough insulation off, lead with the solid wire, or fail to tighten the nut properly, it will do exactly what the OP encountered, fall off, burn up, or leave an "open" on the circuit. BTW, most companies that I work for require that any splice involving solid wires be completely twisted, and trimmed BEFORE the nut is installed. the nut therefore acts as an insulated cover on a splice that will work just fine without one. It's a good habit to get into.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by palani

Better get an electrician.

I don't know of any thermostats out there intended to interupt full heater current (unless the thermostat is in the baseboard heater itself and is sized by the manufacturer). A thermostat might pick up a contactor which then picks up the heater current.

The VAST majority of electric baseboard heat is controlled with wall mounted, line voltage, full amperage thermostats. There are dozens of manufacturers, Markel, Honeywell and White-Rodgers come to mind. In the past they were typically single pole and presented a possible hazard to unqualified people attempting to repair baseboard units. The issue was attempting to use the t-stat as a service disconnect, and assuming that the heater was safe to work on after the t-stat was turned off. Since a single line break t-stat left one 120 volt leg still feeding the heater, it is possible to get severely injured, or killed, working on a heater that you mistakenly believe to be disconnected. Newer code requirements mandate that all line voltage t-stats be double pole, so the off position cuts power to both 120 volt feeds. If the area to be heated exceeds the capacity of a single 20 amp/240 volt circuit, it becomes necessary to use a relay (contactor) and a low voltage t-stat. This results in a dramatic increase in cost, and requires enough skill to understand and follow control diagrams, two reasons why they are usually avoided.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by OkieDavid

Compression connectors (such as split bolt) are fine for bare grounds but unless it's in an insulated box designed for that purpose (main lugs in the panel box for example), I personally wouldn't use them "loose" for an energized conductor, wrapped with tape or otherwise.

I have disassembled split bolts insulated in newspaper and taped with "varnished cambric" tape. The connections carried hundreds of amps each, in a very harsh industrial enviroment for decades. The newspaper was from the 1940's. Today split bolt are covered in rubber and plastic tapes that are far superior to anything ever dreamed of seventy year ago, and (if properly installed) will last for decades loaded to 100% of their design value. That said, there are devices, like insulated taps, that are far better choices for most applications that previously required a "bug" or split lug. All of this has little to do with a typical residential installation where split lugs are almost never used.

[comfortablynumb]

here... go download a few books I yanked off my book collection disks....on the house.
its safe trust me..


the step by step book of home wiring
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=54U0R9IX

teach yourself about electronics and electricity
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=KQKD3NGJ

These are PDF format scanned books...... very nice. Just type in the 3 letter security check and download them. No tricks, no pop ups... I promise, just 2 good books.
They will give you a basic working knowledge of how this stuff can kill you or cure you.
lol

(yeah I cross posted this in another electric question thread... so sue me for being nice.)

[TheBlueOne]

So what do we do to connect a lighter weight stranded wire with a heavy solid wire?

Two different methods can be used here.
The first method is to twist them together and then solder them with rosin core solder, either lead based or silver based will work. Do not use acid core solder which is a plumbing solder. Then put a proper sized wire nut over the connection for insulation purposes. My father wired his whole house this way back in 1966.
The second method is the industrial method. It's what we use every day to connect dissimilair sized wires together on circuits up to 480 VAC. It involves ring terminals which are connectors with a hole in them that are crimped on to the wires with a crimp tool. Hardware stores carry the ring terminals and the crimp tool. Ring terminals come in different sizes based on the size of the wire and the size of the hole used for fastening. Typical sizes are a 8-14 (#8 sized hole & #14AWG wire) and 10-10 (#10 sized hole & #10AWG wire). So you get the correct size ring terminals based on wire size (take a sample with you to the hardware store), crimp them on, and fasten the two rings together with a small nut and bolt, usually 8-32 or 10-32 in size. Then wrap the completed splice well with quality electrical tape, preferably Scotch 33+. I have serviced industrial motors wired like this that were installed in the 1920's that still had a solid and troublefree connection.

[pancho]

Listen to tiogacountry, he knows what he is talking about. Some of the others have little experience in household wiring.

[cfabe]

Use the wire nut technique tiogacountry described, do not solder, crimp, bolt, or anything else. The wire nut is the proper connector for this type of residential wiring, someone just installed it improperly.

[comfortablynumb]

Ive seen people solder then wire nut connections like that, I dont see the point, a wire nut is sufficient by itself.

[no1cowboy]

This is what you need to use Set-Screw wire connectorit can be screwed down tight on the wires and then the cap put on works great.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by TheBlueOne

Two different methods can be used here.
The first method is to twist them together and then solder them with rosin core solder, either lead based or silver based will work. Do not use acid core solder which is a plumbing solder. Then put a proper sized wire nut over the connection for insulation purposes. My father wired his whole house this way back in 1966.
The second method is the industrial method. It's what we use every day to connect dissimilair sized wires together on circuits up to 480 VAC. It involves ring terminals which are connectors with a hole in them that are crimped on to the wires with a crimp tool. Hardware stores carry the ring terminals and the crimp tool. Ring terminals come in different sizes based on the size of the wire and the size of the hole used for fastening. Typical sizes are a 8-14 (#8 sized hole & #14AWG wire) and 10-10 (#10 sized hole & #10AWG wire). So you get the correct size ring terminals based on wire size (take a sample with you to the hardware store), crimp them on, and fasten the two rings together with a small nut and bolt, usually 8-32 or 10-32 in size. Then wrap the completed splice well with quality electrical tape, preferably Scotch 33+. I have serviced industrial motors wired like this that were installed in the 1920's that still had a solid and troublefree connection.

The NEC specifically bans the use of soldered connections in many applications, including service wires and grounds. It is a technique that has been outdated in residential wiring for at least fifty years, and for good reason. It is slow, highly dependent on the individual's skill level, inferior to commonly used, cheaper, easier methods, and rejected by the code and most inspectors. As for wasting time soldering a splice before using a wire nut????? WHY? There isn't a reason it the world to do such a thing. Soldering is also dangerous as it will fail in a fault current situation, potentially causing a fire or explosion. As for the recommendation to use crimp on ring terminals, bolt them together and tape them, it is not only too silly to take seriously, it makes great pictures for the code update classes we get to attend. Some instructors like to take a few minutes for a "Hall of Shame" slide show. Try wiring a house with bolts and tape, and I guarantee you will make the show. BTW, the multi-tap connections you are refering to in an industrial motor are there to reverse rotation and/or reconfigure the winding for different voltages, they are not there as an "inspiration" when dreaming up a new, illegal and dangerous way to wire a house. I don't give advice on performing surgery, since I don't have a clue.....think about it?

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by no1cowboy

This is what you need to use Set-Screw wire connectorit can be screwed down tight on the wires and then the cap put on works great.

If you can find small amounts of these at a reasonable price, don't hesitate to use them. We use them for severe duty splices, like in rock crushers and other equipment that will literally shake splices apart. There is even a rubber cover for the splice cap that has a pair of straps that go over the wires before they are spliced. this makes it impossible for the cover to fall off. Kind of like a knit cap strapped to your head with a chin strap. It's all overkill for the OP's situation, but good info. for other applications.