plumbing..toilet to septic

[tamatik]

just got back from my place in the stix.A few months back we hired and paid a neighbour to do the plumbing in the house.Well he never ever finished and I finally plumbed the tub and shower and hopefully found any unglued joints. There were many.just dryfitted and never glued. We still do not have the well hooked up to the house and we use a water bucket to put water into the toilet tank which then goes to the septic tank.
Sitting there yesterday and this smell started wafting thru the place.I looked at the wife...she looked at me and I said "Its not me this time". Turns out its the fumes from the septic..I crawled under the house only to discover..no P trap on the main outflow line including the toilet. Theres P traps under the sinks and tub before they hook into the main outflow, but none in the main line.
This morning the smell was coming up from the sink ..which DOES have a P trap.
The vent pipe for the mainline is directly under the toilet.
I,m stumped as to how I can put a mainline Ptrap in. Theres not much room between the floor and the ground where the line is buried.
Any words of wisdom?/
thanx

[bqz]

Sounds like your vent pipe(a.k.a.Stack pipe) might be stopped up.
It's the one that goes out of the roof ,might have nest or something in it,check it first.
Found walnuts in mine one time ended up putting wire over it to keep squirrels out.
http://www.hometips.com/hyhw/plumbing/plumbing.html

[Jim S.]

The toilet trap is cast into the toilet itself, so it does not need one in-line. There are no traps in the main line, which lead to clogs. Your problem is either a stopped vent, as mentioned, or a poor design, in which you need to add vents.

The other component of a poor design is lack of tee pipes in the septic tank. Your sewer pipe should end in a tee in the tank, with the top of the tee extending above the effluent and the bottom into it. That provides a tank vent that keeps gas vented through the sewer and out the roof vent. Likewise, the field pipe should start with a tee for the same reason.

Ideally, every sink fixture, bath and toilet will be located near a large roof vent pipe, or the waste line to it will be vented with smaller diameter pipe into the larger roof vent.

The idea behind all this is to vent sewer gases before they build up any real pressure. Your system is building pressure, which is getting relieved by bubbling past your trap water and perhaps seeping past your toilet's wax base gasket. That's what you smell.

Make sure your main vent or vents are clear, then assess the system's vent needs from there.

[spectre]

Also, if there isn't any water in the sink or tub traps there will be nothing to keep the smell out of the house.

[Micahn]

Sounds like to me that your vent comes off at the wrong place. What is happening I would say is when the toilet flushes it is sucking the water out of the other traps.
A could of ways this could be fixed but the easy way is to add a vent under the sink. Here is a link showing what I am talking about,
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/autovent.html
You can add one in the drain line under your sink between the wall and p trap. That will stop the trap from getting sucked dry.

I would say just 1 under the bath room sink should fix your whole problem.

Oh and the chances of your roof vents becoming clogged enough to cause problems are slim to none. Now in the dead of winter they can get closed off with ice (very very rare) but things falling down them chances are will let enough air threw to handle things just fine.

[Micahn]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

The toilet trap is cast into the toilet itself, so it does not need one in-line. There are no traps in the main line, which lead to clogs. Your problem is either a stopped vent, as mentioned, or a poor design, in which you need to add vents.

The other component of a poor design is lack of tee pipes in the septic tank. Your sewer pipe should end in a tee in the tank, with the top of the tee extending above the effluent and the bottom into it. That provides a tank vent that keeps gas vented through the sewer and out the roof vent. Likewise, the field pipe should start with a tee for the same reason.

Ideally, every sink fixture, bath and toilet will be located near a large roof vent pipe, or the waste line to it will be vented with smaller diameter pipe into the larger roof vent.

The idea behind all this is to vent sewer gases before they build up any real pressure. Your system is building pressure, which is getting relieved by bubbling past your trap water and perhaps seeping past your toilet's wax base gasket. That's what you smell.

Make sure your main vent or vents are clear, then assess the system's vent needs from there.

Hate to be the one to tell you but the main reason for vents are not to let gas out but air in.
A septic tank is not air tight and will let all the pressure out just fine without any vents at all. The vents in a plumbing system are mainly to let air in so problems like this person is having do not happen.

So everyone knows I was a master plumber before getting hurt where I can no longer work. Plus was a teacher at a plumbing school for many years with a state of Florida vocational teaching certificate for it.

[Macybaby]

Another thing that can happen without adequate venting is that when you run water and it starts syphoning past the trap, there is not enough air coming in from the vent (past the trap) so that the syphone isn't broken, and all the water is pulled right out of the trap. My understanding is that is the main function of the venting (like Michan said).

You should find a connection to the vent system pretty close to all the traps and the toilet. They might all connect together as they head to the roof. Watch slope too, all of them should be level or heading uphill. Any condensation (or rain) that gets into the vent system should have an easy path all the way back to the septic.

This is just some info I've gathered from helping my husband replumb our house.

Cathy

[tamatik]

"Also, if there isn't any water in the sink or tub traps there will be nothing to keep the smell out of the house."
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The only trap that has not had water in it is the laundry room..It diesn,t stink in there.but the bathroom and kitchen does..The stuff (pipes etc)is all less than 3 months old so i,m doubting if the vent is plugged but the mention of the traps being sucked dry is worth exploring..

Also.The vent is not direct thru the roof like I have seen befor..it runs along under the floor and then exits thru the foundation and up the side of the house to just below the eave and we had heavy winds so I thought it was just downdrafting , but today is no wind and its still smelling. I,ll add more length to it and have at the back of the house,.less wind and no overhangs.

One other note..The septic tank has only been installed a month ago and I am backfilling by hand (Very heavy Clay) and yesterday was the first time I had the thing covered..
thanx again

[Macybaby]

With our system, we needed to have one main vent within so many feet of the main outgoing drain. With our plan, this is also close enough to one toilet that we could use it for both. Otherwise we would have THREE main vents. One for the main outgoing line and one for each of two toilets.

Since we were replacing all the old with the new (including septic) the company that installed the septic ran a temporary main vent along the side of the house, as we were moving the location of the toilet. Once we had everything else connected, we capped off the exterior vent as it was no longer needed.

I can't figure out how you could vent sinks properly if the venting is in the floor. I'm pretty sure you should have no downward flow past the trap before you get to the vent . . .

Cathy

[artificer]

A test of the "sucking the water out of the p-trap" idea would be to fill the sinks trap, then flush the toilet. Take the trap apart, and see if it still has water in it. If it doesn't, you need to work on your venting.

I'll agree with Cathy about the weird venting: how is the sink vented with the line in the floor?

A typical waste line would start where it comes into the house, goes to where the main stack is, and then goes up and out the roof. Everything gets connected to it, and everything gets vented. This is the simplest system, and there are almost infinite variations. One main exception is that the toilet doesn't need venting if its within X feet of the stack. (anybody want to pitch in with the proper distances for 3" and 4" pipe?) If you combined the idea of no toilet vent needed and horizontal venting, you could end up with the problems you're having. As others have said, the main purpose of the vent stack is to prevent the water being sucked out of the traps when the toilet is flushed. Could you describe how the pipes are laid out or provide a diagram?

One last thing is about how you fill the toilet with water to flush. Do you just fill the tank, use the toilet, flush, and then wait for the next time? Do you add water to fill the trap and provide the proper water spot? With the normal system, when the tank is filling after the flush, a certain amount of water is sent down the tube in the tank to partialy refil the bowl. If your sink had water in the trap, and you're still getting smells from it, the proper toilet filling procedure probably isn't the problem.

Michael

[sammyd]

just below the eave

Shouldn't it be above the roofline?

The stuff (pipes etc)is all less than 3 months old so i,m doubting if the vent is plugged

Don't doubt, check. Our chimney had a birds nest in it less than 2 months after I replaced the pipe.

[tamatik]

I,ll be back out there tomorrow to check everything again and maybe get a pic..I don,t know how to do a diagram on here.
As for using the toilet..we fill the tank before the flush..There is always some water in the bowl.
I understand the concept of downdrafting and will make sure the vent pipe will run under the eave til it reaches the end of the house and then have it go upward again.
Thanx

[rambler]

Wow, that sounds like just a disaster in venting..... Bet most of your sinks are sucking themselves dry. Just not designed right, from the ground up.

--->Paul