Live hydraulics question - Homesteading Today
Homesteading Today

Go Back   Homesteading Today > General Homesteading Forums > Homesteading Questions


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #1  
Old 10/30/07, 08:55 AM
DW DW is online now
plains of Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: plains of Colorado
Posts: 3,718
Talking Live hydraulics question

Without wanting to cause too much fuss, I was wondering if someone could give us a short tutorial on live hydraulics, what's good, what's bad, what generally get the job done, etc. We just bought a JD 4020 (has 2 remotes), and the hydraulics seem to leak a little (lift action is slow some, but full for power), but I am unknowledgeable about the "live" aspect. Thanks in advance for your time and consideration! Also, what about hdraulic fluid: is it all generic, or is it like car oil, you shouldn't switch brands? What's a good trade name here? When should you change it out? Other maintenance things we ought to do??

__________________

Last edited by DW; 10/30/07 at 09:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10/30/07, 09:57 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 599

I suggest posting this question on the Tractor Forum found at http://www.ytmag.com/

I will trade you my Ford 600 for your JD 4020...

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10/30/07, 10:51 AM
DW DW is online now
plains of Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: plains of Colorado
Posts: 3,718

Thanks FreeRanger, just did just that, the posting that is....way too soon to talk about trading just yet....haven't had the darn thing even a full seven days, don'tchaknow? Additional question came to me after original posting here: although I think "dead" hydraulics might be self explanatory, what would the opposite or corresponding of "live" be refered to and how would you judge which is which?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10/30/07, 11:02 AM
Up North's Avatar
KS dairy farmers
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 3,841

On 40 year old tractors, hydraulic oil leaks are par for the course. That said, if you find leaks to be unacceptable to you, you can purchase seals, kits, or new remote outlets to correct or minimize the hydraulic oil leaks.
As the tractor is new to you, I would consider it protecting your investment to buy a new hydraulic oil filter, drain and flush the entire system, and refill with new clean hydraulic/trans fluid.
JD, Case, New Holland, Agco, all have their own labeled brands. Other sources that sell hy/tran ag fluid are Napa auto stores, Farm Stores, etc.
I would suggest you do some price shopping for your local sources.
Sometimes,* for example only*, the construction(Yellow) JD dealer may sell the very same hy/tran fluid for $1.00 a gallon less than the JD Green Ag dealer.
Point is to check prices- the stuff is spendy.
Most important thing is to keep system full of clean hy/tran fluid- regardless of the name on the bucket.

BTW - What Transmission is in your new-to-you 4020?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10/30/07, 11:37 AM
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 2,341

"Live" hydraulics operate independently of other systems on the tractor. On some early tractors the clutch would need to be engaged for hydraulics to work, others (Although few) the tractor would have to be actually in motion for hydraulics to work. 2 stage cluthes for both hydraulics & PTO were the very early attempts at live hydraulics/pto. To my knowledge, all tractors of 4020 vintage have live hydraulics. Hope this answers your original question.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10/30/07, 11:42 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299

"Live " hydraulics means the PTO and remotes work independently of the transmission.

On many older tractors, the PTO only turns when the tractor is in gear and moving. On some REALLY old ones even the 3 point hitch wouldnt lift unless the tractor was in gear

A "live" PTO will turn without the tractor itself moving

"The 8N was the first model to feature a clutch on the left side, and independent brakes on the right side. One of the drawbacks to the 2N, 8N, and 9N was the lack of hydraulic live lift. In order to raise an implement, the power take off, or PTO, was required to be running. This system could make it difficult to raise a mower when bogged down, as the PTO was required to spin to engage the hydraulic pump. In the next year, 1953, Ford would issue the first overhead valve engine in the Golden Jubilee, also known as the NAA Ford; this tractor was larger than the 8N and featured a live lift system."
http://www.answers.com/topic/ford-n-series-tractors

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10/30/07, 11:52 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm
"Live " hydraulics means the PTO and remotes work independently of the transmission.

On many older tractors, the PTO only turns when the tractor is in gear and moving. On some REALLY old ones even the 3 point hitch wouldnt lift unless the tractor was in gear

A "live" PTO will turn without the tractor itself moving

"The 8N was the first model to feature a clutch on the left side, and independent brakes on the right side. One of the drawbacks to the 2N, 8N, and 9N was the lack of hydraulic live lift. In order to raise an implement, the power take off, or PTO, was required to be running. This system could make it difficult to raise a mower when bogged down, as the PTO was required to spin to engage the hydraulic pump. In the next year, 1953, Ford would issue the first overhead valve engine in the Golden Jubilee, also known as the NAA Ford; this tractor was larger than the 8N and featured a live lift system."
http://www.answers.com/topic/ford-n-series-tractors
You could actually get a live PTO set-up for an 8N. It was made by Sherman. They were rare and bring a pretty price today. Live hydraulics for the 8N is a pretty simple add-on. The Jubilee (1953 NAA) had a live PTO option, but it is also a rareity. More showed up on the 1954 NAA.
Non-live PTO/Hydraulics is not a BAD thing - most tractors of your (and my) father's day did not have either. Your 4020 will have both, though. Actually, when you get bogged down with an implement on an 8N, all you need to do is shift into neutral, raise the implement, then dis-engage the PTO, shift into gear and drive out. Simple. A good overrunning clutch (ORC) is a really good idea....
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10/30/07, 01:22 PM
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Zone 7
Posts: 10,317

On most tractors made in this country or to our specs there is a draft control adjacent to the lift lever. If the draft control is set to the extreme it can cause the lift to not perform as expected. You may want to check that. If the JD is leaking on the underside where a large shaft runs through the rear housing that is common and there are after market fixes for the engineering flaw.

__________________

Agmantoo
If they can do it,
you know you can!


Last edited by agmantoo; 10/30/07 at 01:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10/30/07, 02:17 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299

"The Jubilee (1953 NAA) had a live PTO option, but it is also a rareity. More showed up on the 1954 NAA."

My next door neighbor has a 54 NAA with the High/Low transmission, but not the live PTO. He added the overun clutch when the bush hog pushed him into a fence post! LOL

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10/30/07, 02:25 PM
michiganfarmer's Avatar
Max
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeRanger
I suggest posting this question on the Tractor Forum found at http://www.ytmag.com/

I will trade you my Ford 600 for your JD 4020...
humph, smoke another bowl
__________________
http://lownfamilymaplesyrup.com/ max@lownfamilymaplesyrup.com
Professional Tool. 1220 Woodmere Ave,Traverse City, MI. 49686. 231-941-8003. http://professionaltool.com/
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 10/30/07, 02:27 PM
michiganfarmer's Avatar
Max
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by DW
Thanks FreeRanger, just did just that, the posting that is....way too soon to talk about trading just yet....haven't had the darn thing even a full seven days, don'tchaknow?
that 4020 is one of the best tractors ever made.

they are worth a lot of repair cost.
__________________
http://lownfamilymaplesyrup.com/ max@lownfamilymaplesyrup.com
Professional Tool. 1220 Woodmere Ave,Traverse City, MI. 49686. 231-941-8003. http://professionaltool.com/
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 10/30/07, 02:29 PM
michiganfarmer's Avatar
Max
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Near Traverse City Michigan
Posts: 6,501
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm
". One of the drawbacks to the 2N, 8N, and 9N was the lack of hydraulic live lift. ]
and they have no more horse power than a lawn mower
__________________
http://lownfamilymaplesyrup.com/ max@lownfamilymaplesyrup.com
Professional Tool. 1220 Woodmere Ave,Traverse City, MI. 49686. 231-941-8003. http://professionaltool.com/
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 10/30/07, 02:42 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 599

DW,
In case you don't understand Max, he's saying you have a great tractor. It's at least twice the tractor any old Ford of that time period is. Not because it's that ugly green that drives the price up, the 4020 model is a great small farm tractor. You would be a fool to trade it for my 1955 Ford 600 (or anybody's parade 8N).

Max,
Do you feel better now?

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 10/30/07, 04:52 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganfarmer
and they have no more horse power than a lawn mower
Most tractors of the same time period had comparable HP.

Rated Drawbar HP Make/Model
17-19 IH "H"
25 IH "M"
16.8 JD 40
12 JD "B" early
25 JD "B" late
24 1948 8N
The biggest drawback to an 8N was WEIGHT, not Horsepower.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 10/30/07, 06:48 PM
DW DW is online now
plains of Colorado
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: plains of Colorado
Posts: 3,718

I just want to thank you fellers (and any ladies if you helped too) for your timely response. I have sorta gotten the jist of it, and will probably come up with other questions PDQ as I commence to knucklebustin' on the wrenches, if ya know what I mean. Mr. Upnorth, how would I find out what kind of transmission I do have.....ID #'s somewhere on the carcase?? I'd be tickled to find out and report back. I do have some difficulty getting to move in some gears without a little bit of grindy noise, but they will eventually engage pending some more carefull clutching. The thing does still purr quite nicely. The feller I bought from said he had converted the electrical system to 12 V., commenting some about polarity problems in the original system (I gathered he was getting positive connection in some hookups when he needed negative and visaversa). Not quite sure what that is all about, but I'm sure I'm about to find out. Starter was "changed to 12V too, all the lights seem to work, and nothing else seems amiss. And it do fire right up! I also have a curved drawbar and no 3 point hitch setup. Looking to modify some for the 3 point fairly soon. Have secured on ebay a fairly clean looking copy of the operator's manual and will hopefully be able to fend for myself a little better soon. Thanks again all youse fellers.....mucho appreciated. JW of DW

__________________

Last edited by DW; 10/30/07 at 06:55 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 10/30/07, 08:47 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganfarmer
and they have no more horse power than a lawn mower
It may only have 23 horsepower, but it will pull a 3 bottom plow.

Torque means more than HP for lots of things
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 10/30/07, 09:05 PM
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Middle of NC
Posts: 1,405

It may pull a 3 bottom in the sand of eastern NC, but it won't pull a 2 bottom in new ground in the red clay of central NC. It won't even pull a bog harrow in new ground here.

A JD 40 will out pull an 8N with 6 less HP.

DW, a non live PTO will not let the tractor stop until the bush hog or other implement stops. "The PTO stops turning" It can run you past where you want to go. A live PTO will let the hog coast to a stop after the tractor stops.
Along with the aforementioned clutch out to lift 3-point.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 10/30/07, 10:44 PM
Up North's Avatar
KS dairy farmers
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 3,841

DW-When you obtain operator's manual,turn to section explaining shift patterns on transmissions offerred on the 4020. Hold the picture up to your shift console.
Match picture to yours. Book should tell trans name below picture.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 10/30/07, 10:52 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: MN
Posts: 7,193

Is your 4020 a gas or diesel engine? The 4020 diesel with the better tranny of the 2 is considered one of the best tractors ever made. The engine is fuel efficient,t he tractor was built beefy in allt he importantplaces, and it is big enough tractor to do something, but not so big as to get in it's own way.

The 4010 didn't have all the features, and the 4030 lost fuel ecconomy.


Some were sold with 24 volt systems, but since no one elese went that direction, they are kinda orphans - easier to have a pure 12v setup.

No 3pt hitch - hum. That would be a negative.

Replied to you about the oil types over at ytmag - basically you can get more costly oil from JD; or you can get cheaper oil from a farm supply store. Be sure it lists (in the fine print sometimes) that is is compatable with what your tractor manual calls for. Understand the difference between universal hyd oil & universal trans/hyd oil - they are not the same thing.

--->Paul

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 10/30/07, 11:04 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Eastern North Carolina
Posts: 31,299

"A JD 40 will out pull an 8N with 6 less HP"

The one I was talking about is not an 8N Its an NAA with about the same horespower as the JD 40. The 8N has less HP than either of those two

http://www.tractordata.com/td/td38.html
http://www.tractordata.com/td/td219.html
http://www.tractordata.com/td/td223.html

When that red clay is dry you almost need dynamite to break it up LOL

I was raised in that part of the state, around Burlington

__________________
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:25 AM.