who oversees land surveys?

[gimpy]

To make a long story short, we're in Kentucky and the land was surveyed about 6 years ago. The new neighbors apparently paid the old surveyor to certify that the fence was the boundary which it was 6 years ago and he did apprently certify such without actually coming out to the site a second time. The previous neighbor moved the fence and survey markers after the survey and sold about 6 acres of our woodland as his, so the new owner thought he was getting a deal at a lower price per acre of the fenced land. I didn't know about any of this until the new owner clearcut the 6 acres. I need to talk to someone at the state level, not local. Whom do I call?

[hudsonm5]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. Usually surveyors are licensed by the state as are other professions like doctors and engineers. So, you might want to check with your state department of licensing's professional office, or equivalent.

[Bearfootfarm]

"Whom do I call?"

Your local Register of Deeds will have the original survey coordinates with the precise locations on the deed, and your local tax office should have original maps showing the same data.

They cant just say " a fence" without giving EXACT locations also.

If the surveyor did something illegal, you need to start with your local police or Sheriff

[radiofish]

Go to your local county records/ tax recorders office. There should be previous surveys on file, from before this happened. The states also have licensing bureaus for professionals such as engineers, surveyors, etc. I think you may have one heck of a lawsuit for several people over the loss fo 6 acres of trees!!!

When my property was surveyed, it was done by a former co-worker of mine, from when I was the crewleader of the fisheries survey crew years ago - for the US Forest Service working on Six Rivers National Forest. I walked ever inch of my boundary lines and learned every benchmark for the property, with my surveyor.

[texican]

Are you living on your land? If so, I find it's always a good idea to 'know' where the actual boundary markers are.... taking a non surveyors (>neighbors ) word for the boundaries is not a good idea. Walk the boundary lines every so often. And, if you hear chainsaws, tractors, 4wheelers, whatever, 'course' them with your ear, determine if they might be close to your boundaries, then walk over and check it out. I've caught out of state neighbors taking liberties, or rather about to, had a talk about boundaries, and problems solved.

If you positively know where you're boundaries are (go to the courthouse and look at your property deed... the land description is on the deed), contact the offending neighbor who cut 6 acres of trees and see if they want to make a settlement. If they don't, contact the local sheriff, and make a theft report. Once the report is filed, contact a lawyer, and sue for damages. One of my aunts was trespassed on by a large timber company.... they came in and cut only 100 trees... the trespassing owner offered pulpwood prices for the premium sawlogs they took... aunt sued, had foresters measure the stumps, and the large trees uncut, extrapolated a price for damages, then tripled it. The trespassing party paid.... as my aunt's lawyer is an expert at padding his bills!

You might need to have your own survey done... the certified surveyor will look at the last survey, and simply go out and restake the boundaries. I'd recommend a post hole digger and a couple bags of cement... difficult to move cement boundary markers.

[quietstar]

The professional surveyors I use would not complete a survey or resurvey without confirming it "on the ground". There seem to be some folks with high dollar liability, but will likely require the services of a "Wolverine" lawyer to collect. My experience is that trees, improperly taken, become very valuable. My gut reaction would be to go after the guy that sold your trees (Seems likely he failed to get title insurance for his land purchance) and let him pay legal costs to recover from his Grantor of warranty title. First step for me would be to get copies of everything available while I located a mean, hungry lawyer. Best of luck...Glen

[hillsidedigger]

As a self-employed licensed land surveyor (not in Kentucky)

I would say your best solution is to find and hire a different surveyor to actually determine, map and record the correct boundaries. If any substandard action has been perpetrated by the previous surveyor, it should be apparent when the job is done correctly.

After the facts are established, your course of action will be obvious.

The states have licensing boards to somewhat oversee surveying but most are passive only investigating when there are formal complaints about a licensee.

The court of public opinion, peer review, economics and not desiring to be slapped with a lawsuit are the forces that really oversee surveying.

[Stephen in SOKY]

If you have title insurance, might be a good time to contact the carrier. My own survey & the mere mention of title insurance came in handy here (Warren County KY) about 2 years ago.

[watcher]

A survey doens't tell you what the boundry marker is. It tells you where the PROPERTY LINE is. It does this by saying the property line goes from point A in this direction for that far. After that it goes from point B in that direction for this far. This continues until it reaches the starting point. Every time it makes a change of direction the surveyor is required to place a marker and note type of marker and its location on the plat. If the survey markers are in the correct place and the correct type listed on the plat then the surveyor is covered.

Its up to the buyer to confirm the land he is buying matches the survey. After buying its up to an owner to know what his land and what's not. It seems neither you nor your neighbor did this. Everyone reading this should take this as a lesson learned.

With that said here's your options as I see them. Get your plat out and check to see if the boundry markers are where they are supposed to be and they are what they are said to be (concrete, rebar, iron pipe, etc). If they are then you either have to eat the loss of the timber and damage to your land and move on. Or you can tell the neighbor he owes you for the timber and damage and he can try to recupe his money from the previous owner who gave him the bum advice on the boundry line. Wish him luck because winning that case wouldn't be something I bet on.

If the markers have been moved the above applies for you but the neighbor has a little better chance of winning a case.

[Old Vet]

Go to the State Serveior and let him do a servey. My wife used to work for the State Serveior and that is what they do If you have a serveyior do a Property line and another serveior disagree. If the neighbor just did this without a serviey then you go to court and let the judge decide which one is right. He will probily be libale for double damages plus court cost.

[texican]

One thing I forgot to mention....

...depending on where you live, it might take over a year to get the survey done. Around here, you're looking at 12 to 18 months for a regular survey. You can pay an exorbitant additional rate to get it done sooner... pricey enough as it is...

[rambler]

Specificlly answering your question - you do need to go to the local level, as land issues are recorded at the county courthouse, not at the state level. Not sure why you wish to go to the state instead of the local, but the state will just refer you back to the local courthouse.

Likely the survey is also on file with the company that did the survey, and you can get the cheapest results by going to them again - they will have the legwork done & can do a quicker repeat of it. Obviously they will need to come out & measure this time around tho.

Hiring a different survey co to do it again will result in 2 different surveys, & anyone who wants to be nasty will pit the old vs the new survey against each other in court. While you likely will win, there could be more steps & cost & time going that route. All depends on the tiny details of what is going on.

For best, cheapest, quickest results, go to county courtthouse & original survey co with your issues.

If that does not work out, then you need to get your own, diff survey co to do a new survey & then go back to the courthouse & argue out the differences between the findings.

Your new neighbors & the old neighbors who sold the place have a stake in how it turns out, so they will pick & choose thier options as well. We can't control that, so you have to be prepared to follow the paths this leads down.

In any case, the state itself won't be much involved unless you get to appealing things in higher courts.

These matters are stored & dealt with at the local county level.

Now, every state is different, so maybe I'm all wet for your situation...... But, in most places, this is how it would fall out.

So, you must have issues with the local county folks, if you wish to bypass them?

--->Paul

[mwhit]

Originally Posted by hillsidedigger

As a self-employed licensed land surveyor (not in Kentucky)

I would say your best solution is to find and hire a different surveyor to actually determine, map and record the correct boundaries. If any substandard action has been perpetrated by the previous surveyor, it should be apparent when the job is done correctly.

After the facts are established, your course of action will be obvious.

The states have licensing boards to somewhat oversee surveying but most are passive only investigating when there are formal complaints about a licensee.

The court of public opinion, peer review, economics and not desiring to be slapped with a lawsuit are the forces that really oversee surveying.

I agree. The first thing you need to do is have a survey done. For any dispute over boundaries you will need to prove that the current fence line has been moved. Nobody at any level will just take your word for it. It will be a long, drawn out process if the 'clear cutter' then decides to have his own new survey done and fight you on this. Our village was disputing a small chunk of land on mainstreet a few years ago with 2 other people who both said it was theirs. I saw about 5 surveys done there before it was settled...

DH does surveys with his father who just retired as surveyor for the state. He mostly did training on how to use the GPS equipment the last several years and now he has purchased his own and they do GPS surveys. Maybe you could find a surveyor near you that does them??

Always remember-- a survey is only as accurate as the person who does it and a better survey takes longer (hence more expensive) so your best bet is to have a new, really accurate survey. Most likely this will involve surveying surrounding properties too.

Michelle

[rambler]

Who exactly do you have the issue with?

Previous owner?

Current owner?

Previous surveyor?

Local county?

I'd think the big problem is with the previous owner who messed up you, the current owner, & the surveyor.

The current owner should be real made at the seller, and the surveyor should be able to figure things out.

Not sure how far down the process you have already traveled.

--->Paul

[WayneR]

The county clerks office will have the land records you need. A title search will help establish a prior "chain" of owners and any changes in the "meets & bounds" that occured during any prior transactions.

Land surveyors aren't cheap. That's because of problems like this. They now use GPS as well as old methods. The big tree,iron rod or rock aren't used much any more, and probably shouldn't be.

Attorney's aren't cheap either. It is important to always have one examine land transactions. Title search, title insurance, easments, mineral rights, etc.
plus other things we may not have thought of.

The attorney can advise you how you should proceed. You're probably going to need one if you can't reach an agreement with your neighbour.

[edcopp]

Originally Posted by gimpy

To make a long story short, we're in Kentucky and the land was surveyed about 6 years ago. The new neighbors apparently paid the old surveyor to certify that the fence was the boundary which it was 6 years ago and he did apprently certify such without actually coming out to the site a second time. The previous neighbor moved the fence and survey markers after the survey and sold about 6 acres of our woodland as his, so the new owner thought he was getting a deal at a lower price per acre of the fenced land. I didn't know about any of this until the new owner clearcut the 6 acres. I need to talk to someone at the state level, not local. Whom do I call?

When I don't know who to call I just call the Governors office. Governors are elected by the voters and usually have a staff who just love to help out. The staff person will go to any length to find out who it is that you need to talk with, no matter how long it takes. It really does not hurt to have the complaint trickle down from the governors office either. This works even better with a letter.

[blufford]

Gimpy, I don't know what county you live in but I think you need to get a lawyer.

[65284]

Originally Posted by gimpy

The previous neighbor moved the fence and survey markers after the survey and sold about 6 acres of our woodland as his,

This is the person who you have a beef with not the present owner. If he did actually move survey markers and fradulently sell land he knew he didn't own, he is or should be, in deep doo doo. You say you didn't know about this until it was clear cut. How did he move a fence without you knowing about it?

This sounds like both a legal and civil matter. If you have title ins. call them asap, situations like this are what it's for. You might also see if the present owner will cooperate by contacting his title ins. company.

If none of these options are viable you need to contact a real estate attorney, like yesterday.

[watcher]

Originally Posted by mwhit

I agree. The first thing you need to do is have a survey done. For any dispute over boundaries you will need to prove that the current fence line has been moved. Nobody at any level will just take your word for it. It will be a long, drawn out process if the 'clear cutter' then decides to have his own new survey done and fight you on this. Our village was disputing a small chunk of land on mainstreet a few years ago with 2 other people who both said it was theirs. I saw about 5 surveys done there before it was settled...

Why not just see if you can find the markers by yourself first then point them out to who ever cut the timber? If the original markers are there the odds are the owners can see them and where the property line is supposed to go. Also playing the odds, once the line is seen the by everybody the guy(s) who made the mistake will see it and know they would be on the losing end of a lawsuit and look to avoid that.

Much easier and cheaper than surveys and lawsuits.

[travlnusa]

Oue township is about to start a new survey, and while I dont recall what it is called, the point to it is to void all previous work done.

The township was looking to sell an old strip of land, and when doing so, they discovered, that based on many surveys done by many surveyers, that three people have deed to the same legal description.

They will hire out the survey, then print the results, after that they will then set up an arbritraion board, then the courts will sort out those disputes, and then they can sell.

This is going to get interesting.