If I cut my own 4x4 posts

[charles burns]

...and paint them with off the shelf copper napthawhatever green stuff, recommended for above and below grade, am I dreaming if I think they won't rot?

If so, would painting the bottom, in ground 2ft of post with roofing tar stop them rotting?

If not ...what? I've got nothing against pressure treated wood - other than I can't pressure treat it myself.

[daytrader]

If you wanted to make your oun post. You could just use tar. Works great. JUST COSTS more then buying treated lumber.

If you had a large fencing job. I would not use 4X4 wood. I yould use 5-8 inch fence post that are from cypress.

[rambler]

Type of wood makes much more difference than any type of home treatment you can do to them. Start with a wood that doesn't rot.

--->Paul

[daytrader]

Taken from Cedarwoodfuniture.com

About Cypress
The Cypress tree grows mainly along the southern coastlines and inland areas. The tree produces an oil called cypressine which acts as a natural preservative within the wood. This inherent characteristic of the Southern Cypress makes it durable and extremely resistant to harsh weather conditions, insects and fungus.

Since Cypress wood lacks sap and doesn't bleed, it takes well to sealers, stains and paints. Its color varies in shades of light to dark honey. If left outdoors unfinished in its natural state, the appearance of the wood will become a light pewter color over time.

The lumber is lightweight, scarce of knots, medium textured, and dimensionally stable with a closed straight grain. It is easy to cut, saw, nail, and resists splitting, warping, checking, splintering and cracking. Cypress wood compliments any interior or exterior architectural style from Rustic, Traditional to Modern.

Cypress siding has been commonly used for years on coastal and resort homes. It was also used by colonial builders for their homes, barns, cotton gins, warehouses, boatbuilding and docks. Cypress wood has even been reused from 100 year old structures. Other beneficial uses today include: porches, bridges, shingles, shutters and greenhouse construction.

A little tar on the bottom of the post should give you a fence post that will out live you.

[agmantoo]

For a home approach of treating wood that is going to be in ground contact against rot you are going to be disappointed since you cannot get good penetration by the preservative. However, I have seen oak treated by standing the 4 x 4 posts in 55 gallon barrels that were about half full of used motor oil. The posts were left in the oil for months to obtain good penetration. The above ground portions of these posts were painted after installed in a board fence. The posts treated in this manner last about the same a commercial prepared posts.

[Kazahleenah]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

For a home approach of treating wood that is going to be in ground contact against rot you are going to be disappointed since you cannot get good penetration by the preservative. However, I have seen oak treated by standing the 4 x 4 posts in 55 gallon barrels that were about half full of used motor oil. The posts were left in the oil for months to obtain good penetration. The above ground portions of these posts were painted after installed in a board fence. The posts treated in this manner last about the same a commercial prepared posts.

This is the method I use... and it does well. I use Cedar posts.

Kaza

[fixer1958]

I have a friend that pours used motor oil in the post hole if it to be dry tamped.
He swears by it.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by fixer1958

I have a friend that pours used motor oil in the post hole if it to be dry tamped.
He swears by it.

How much, at what point? Oil in the bottom of the hole would do nothing - just be bad thing to do.

Does he saturate the hole after it is about back-filled, to keep microbes out of the ground next to the wood?

Think soaking the posts for several months would be a more acceptable way, less oil floating down tot he water table..... Put the preservative into the wood, not the ground?

--->Paul

[js2743]

i dont think i would even wanna try unless like some else said a wood that wont rot like red cedar or locust or mulberry those three types will last for a long time with nothing done to them. because fencing is a hard costly job that i dont wanna have to do again for many years to come after i fence the first time. oak is a hard wood but it will rot faster than pine so i wouldnt even try it.

[texican]

Are you making fenceposts or posts for a barn/shelter?

Do you have your own sawmill? Otherwise, getting 4x lumber is almost as cheap as the cutting fees, and an extra 15% premium, you can get pressure treated.

I wouldn't put 4x4 posts, home treated in the ground, expecting them to last forever... unless they were cypress, cedar, locust, or redwood. And sapwood cedar and cypress will still rot ( I speak from experience ).

I do have some split post oak posts in my fence that are over 50 years old....only treatment they got was a good splitting with an axe, and thrown into a hole.

If I were going to treat a post I wanted to last forever, I'd have the ends soaking in the copper solution, preferably while the wood is still green, letting it soak in the barrel for a long time. And then a good drenching with motor oil or diesel, in the post hole, unless you have really porous soil, where the oil might leach out to a water table.

[charles burns]

Appreciate the response. I'm tempted to do the oil soak thing but given that the only usable trees I have are pine I get the impression I would be nuts to attempt it.

The posts are for a fence, unfortunately I have no cypress or wood more suited for use as an in ground post. I'm on the verge of spending a chunk of money on a chain saw upgrade to chain saw mill some timber to use above ground. It's going to kill me to walk past a stack of my own wood to go and buy some.

I'm going to look on the positive side - at least I'll have a good deal of timber to play with above the ground.

Thank you for the replies.

[agmantoo]

I would still consider doing the pine! I purchased commercially treated posts 9 years ago and I am reworking a portion of my pastures and thus I am taking some of the posts out. The commercially treated posts are about 75% usable and the balance are junk. There are exceptions to everything but the life of a wood posts probably averages less than 20 years. Replacing a few rotted post over time is just normal maintenance IMO. You could get so added longevity by charring the portion of the post that will make soil contact and then doing the oil soak. Charring predates chemical treating.

[Windy in Kansas]

Originally Posted by fixer1958

I have a friend that pours used motor oil in the post hole if it to be dry tamped.
He swears by it.

I would swear at him if he were living anywhere near me---and I certainly hope he doesn't.

In this day and age to get rid of used oil by dumping in on/in the ground for whatever reason is lunacy because of what has been learned over the years.

When he or you go to drinking water with an oil slick on each glassful please feel free to remember this.

[charles burns]

Well now. Agman - I went googling charred wood preserving methods and found this -
It's taken from the oldandsold.com site and I think it was fence post wood preservation techniques around the early 1900's. Interesting.



1. FENCE POSTS, TELEGRAPH AND TELEPHONE POLES, ETC. —TO Prevent Decay.—Among the various methods heretofore practiced for preserving the ends of fence posts, telegraph poles, ties and other timber to be placed in the ground, has been charring, or coating with coal tar, but it is said that while neither of these modes is sufficient alone, the two combined answers every purpose. The tar filling the pores of the charred surface, which in itself is indestructible, prevents absorption of moisture from the ground into the interior unaltered portion of the wood. In time the tar is converted into a kind of rosin, which is very durable.-Harpers' Weekly.

2. The Science, Best and Cheapest Way of Preserving Wood. -The Journal of Forestry thus explains what is necessary to preserve wood:

The primary cause of decay in wood is the fermentation and the decomposition of the sap that is within the pores. Wood, pure and by itself, is not easily destroyed by the ordinary agencies of nature, namely, wet and dry weather, heat and cold, etc If the sap within the pores can either be removed or rendered inactive, the wood may be preserved. There are several methods of doing this, such as saturating the wood with mineral salts, creosote, etc. The cheapest, easiest and therefore the best method seems to be to charge the wood with crude petroleum. Pine (if seasoned), for example, is made almost waterproof by saturating it with this simple material, and therefore, made much more Tasting. Crude petroleum is very cheap, and may be applied with a brush until the wood will soak up no more. In the application care should be taken to-avoid accidents by fire, and not approach the work with a flame until it is dry. An application of petroleum is especially valuable to much exposed woodwork."

Remarks.—For fence posts, it is well known to be important to place the butt end of the timber upwards, from the greater difficulty that water finds in ascending against the natural course of sap, in the pores. This done, then, and.. the posts painted with the crude petroleum, or by the charring and painting with the coal tar, it would appear they should become almost everlasting; and why our railroad men do not try this on sections of their ties, is almost unaccountable. With the great destruction of our forests, yearly, for this and all other purposes for which timber is used, must soon compel them to resort to-, this practice, else to be compelled to use iron or steel ties, at a much greater expense. Of course this is a free country, and they have a right to use unpainted and unprotected timber, so long as they can buy it; still, the painting with the petroleum would be far cheaper than such constant changing, as is. now the necessary custom, Were not only the whole of the posts, but also fence boards, petroleumed thoroughly, it would pay big. Try it a few times, as the fellow said about cedar rails, they would last a thousand years, for he. had tried it several times! Of course this man's disregard to truth was very great; but not so great as these railroad men and timber speculators disregard to the destruction of our forests. In some parts of Europe, iron ties have already been tested, hence correct information could easily be obtained upon this important subject. Probably, in the United States, with the improvements in the manufacture of steel, this would take the place of iron for ties; but the importance of protecting fence posts is too great to be so generally neglected it is.

3. Fence Posts, the Importance of Seasoning, etc.—An experimental writer upon this subject very sensibly says: " To have a fence that will. last we must have good posts, for that is the part that gives out first by rotting off at the surface of the soil. Then the fence has to come down, new posts be-set, and the boards replaced. Sixteen years ago I experimented with fences, and find seasoned oak posts, oiled and then tarred with boiling coal tar, last the longest. I took green posts that were sawed 5 inches square at one end and 2 by 5 inches at the other, and 7 feet long. I tarred half as many as would build my fence, and the other half I put into the ground green with nothing done to them. In 5 years after, the tarred posts were nothing but a shell under the ground, all the- inside being decayed. Some of the other posts were rotted. off, and some were about half rotten. Two years after, I built another fence, with seasoned oak posts, same size as the first, giving them all a good coat of oil, and in a few days after tarred them, as I did before, with coal tar, heated in a can made for the purpose, 4 feet deep and large enough to hold 4 posts set on end. I left them in the boiling tar for about 10 minutes, then took them out and ended them up to dry. And now, after 14 years, not 1 in 10 needs replacing. I shall never build another fence for myself requiring posts without first thoroughly seasoning, then oiling, and then tarring them. If they are tarred when green, the tar does not penetrate the wood, and in a short time will all scale off. When the wood is seasoned the oil penetrates the wood, and the coating of coal tar keeps out the moisture, thereby preserving the wood from -decay."

4. Fence Posts, Importance of tamping, etc.—A correspondent of the Country Gentleman gives the following as his plan, which the author fully endorses, of setting fence posts, except that when the hole is dug 2 feet. -deep to be tamped with stone I should not cut back in sharpening more than 6 inches, while he cuts back 12 to 15. If only to be driven 1 foot, or even 18 inches, 6 is enough in gravelly or any soil except hard-pan or hard clay. Ile says:

I. "I first sharpen my posts, cutting back from 12 to 15 inches, according to the size. I then dig good sized holes, say 15 inches across and 2 feet deep; then take a crowbar and punch a hole in the bottom 10 or 12 inches deeper, making it large at the top by working the bar back and forth. I then drive the post with a heavy iron maul until the post is fully 3 feet in the ground. [The author can not think he means 3 feet below the hole dug for the stones; if he does it would require a 9 foot post—not at all probable.] I then fill the hole with small stones well tamped with the head of the bar. Posts set in this way will be sound and serviceable when those set at the same time in the ordinary way and tamped with earth will be decayed and useless. A neighbor tells me -that he made a piece of board fence over 30 years ago, in part of which he set the posts with stones, and the rest were tamped with earth. Those set with stone remained sound when the others had rotted away.

II. Straight Post and Rail Fence.—He continues: "The best and most economical fence I can make is a straight fence of posts and rails. I set the posts in a line, 11 feet apart, using 12 foot rails, nailed on alternate sides of the posts, which gives them a small lap. I drive a good stake by the side of each -post, held to the post by a wire placed above the bottom rails and a second wire below the top rails. Fence built in this manner is firm and strong, taking much less room than an ordinary rail fence, and is more serviceable in restraining unruly stock than board fence. One strand of barbed wire across the top of the posts, 8 or 10 inches above the top rail, will cause unruly stock to keep at a respectful distance after one trial."

Remarks.—There is not a doubt but what rails, properly nailed upon the -posts, are more economical than boards, yet, I think, more expensive, especially on our western prairies, and there, too, almost absolutely impossible to get the rails at any price. There is no doubt, either, but what the barbed wire along the top would be respected, even by unruly stock, after a single trial. Now, if the seasoned, oiled, and tarred oak posts of No. 3 are preferred, then set by tamping stones around them, as in this last recipe, and no dirt put on top of the stones, you will have a post that will last much longer than any other way, and well worth adopting especially where timber is scarce.



So, I'm back in the hmmmmmm frame of mind.

[PD-Riverman]

Charles, Just in case you don't know, you will have better luck with pine and more straight 4x4 if you center the heart in each 4x4.

[anniew]

Don't know where you live, but I bought (a few years ago) locust posts from an individual for about $3 a post. If there is any locust around you, perhaps someone is cutting/selling them.

[charles burns]

PD- no I didn't know that. I do now though, I'm taking notes. I may try this after all. I'm thinking cut, dry, char, bitumen type seal of some sort.

anniew - I specifically wanted to use the pine really - they are trees that have to come down anyway to thin them out some. The price of treated posts, as others have mentioned, isn't too bad, it just seems not quite right to go and buy wood when I'm surrounded by it. Although, now you mention it I could cut some pine beams and offer them as trade for good post timber.

[PD-Riverman]

Originally Posted by charles burns

PD- no I didn't know that. I do now though, I'm taking notes. I may try this after all. I'm thinking cut, dry, char, bitumen type seal of some sort.

anniew - I specifically wanted to use the pine really - they are trees that have to come down anyway to thin them out some. The price of treated posts, as others have mentioned, isn't too bad, it just seems not quite right to go and buy wood when I'm surrounded by it. Although, now you mention it I could cut some pine beams and offer them as trade for good post timber.

Charles, after you dry these 4x4's, if you could find a heavy steel drum that was big enough to put several 4x4's into it at one time along with whatever you are using to treat them, then seal it off and hook a vacuum pump to it it would not take but a short to treat your post. Good Luck!

[daytrader]

For fence post I really do not belive you can cut for a cheaper price then buying cypress fence post for.

They are easy to drive in as they are pointed.

I do want to add for folks that may be watching. If you are building a pole barn. 3 2"x6" treated boards bolted together will give you BETTER load coverage over a 6" x 6" POST AT a much cheaper cost.

Our pole barn was built on 8' x 2" x 6" wood. Even the 20 foot with 4 feet in the ground "poles/beams" were constusted with 8' wood.

The building inspector that inspected the building in its set up was very happy. His comment. "That is how it is supposed to be done". I can not take the credit. I would have purchased the longer, more expensive timbers. Just the design called for certain weight issues.