One pasture?

[retiredbop]

Hypothetical Acres is a 10 acre farm with:

2 Highland cattle (1 cow, 1 bull) plus their annual calf for freezing,
2 Hereford pigs (1 sow, 1 boar) plus 1 or 2 of their piglets for the freezer,
12 Oberhasli milking does (alternated freshening for year round milking of at least 6 does) and 1 buck plus 5 or 6 of their offspring for the freezer and 2 doelings for replacements each year
2 GPs performing LGD duties,
24 Barred Rock pullets plus a yearly crop of 2 or 3 dozen freezer birds,
6 Guineas or so.

All of these animals were selected for their genetic diversity and because they can all supposedly be free-ranged (except the GP's of course).

The question is can the owner fence Hypothetical Acres as just one big pasture and let them all co-habitate? Or would it be a better idea to have 5 or 6 pastures and rotate them on a regular basis, say quarterly or every 6 months or something?

[sheepish]

You would need to rotate and unless you have unusually fertile soil and a mild climate, bring in feed for those animals.

One week of eating and 1 to 2 months of recovery is common. If you leave them longer, they will just eat the new growth and leave the stemmy stuff to get even older and stemmier. Once again, it really depends on your growing conditions. Cattle and pigs are a lot harder on pastures than goats or fowl.

What kind of LGD duties can Guinea Pigs perform?

[Missy M]

You'll need to have at least a few pastures. You don't want to just let your male and female animals cohabit. You'll end up with all kinds of uplanned breeding, not to mention inbreeding.

[agmantoo]

Going through the list, The cattle and pigs should be fine with paddocks established for rotational grazing. You need lots of individual paddocks, the more the better and the less hay you will have to feed. The internal fences do not have to be as good as the perimeter fence. The pigs/hogs will eat the chickens and possibly newborn goats. The guineas will go wherever they choose, roaming up to a couple hundred acres. The GPs should be content with the small herd to oversee. Chickens could be confined to a chicken tractor and thrive. All the animals will need access to shade and water. Some of the animals would appreciate a shelter.

[rambler]

Hands down, you need to rotate with several padocks! Will be 50% more grass & of better quality in most locations, and with that much on so few acres (Assume some is lost to house, barn, garden, etc?) you'll need it.

--->Paul

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

Hypothetical Acres is a 10 acre farm with:

2 Highland cattle (1 cow, 1 bull) plus their annual calf for freezing,
2 Hereford pigs (1 sow, 1 boar) plus 1 or 2 of their piglets for the freezer,
12 Oberhasli milking does (alternated freshening for year round milking of at least 6 does) and 1 buck plus 5 or 6 of their offspring for the freezer and 2 doelings for replacements each year
2 GPs performing LGD duties,
24 Barred Rock pullets plus a yearly crop of 2 or 3 dozen freezer birds,
6 Guineas or so.

I would certainly cross fence so you can rotate pastures. You'll need at least one very stout paddock where you can keep your Oberhasli buck when the does are not being bred(I separate my bucks from the does all but maybe 2-3 months out of the year). He will need a constant companion. A wether is perfect for that. You don't want him running with the does year round. You will have does being bred too soon, doelings being bred to young(to their sire), etc.
Your chickens and guineas ought to be able to free-range with any of the animals mentioned(except maybe the hogs??).
I wouldn't run goats and hogs together. Heard too many first-hand accounts of hogs injuring and/or eating the goats, especially kids.
The GP's need to of course be able to have access to the goats wherever they are. The goats and the cattle ought to be able to co-habitate just fine as long as you keep the goats barn inaccessable to the cows.

[Willowdale]

Question: If the bull and the boar are each used once per year to breed a single female, would it make sense to use AI or a neighbor's bull and boar? Those males will consume a lot of resources for a once yearly performance!

(like my ex-husband -- oops! did I say that?)

[Ark]

It probably depends a LOT on where this 10 acres is located!


We have 10 acres of cedar and oak with not much grass. Perfect for goats.
BUT, 12 goats can wipe it out in a year. There is no way I can just let them browse and not supplement.

We have one horse and there wont be enough grass year round for him, although all this rain we are getting sure is making nice green grass for now!

The pig or pigs stay penned up and only eat scraps, whey and pig pellets. If they run free they create all sorts of nasty muddy areas, and pollute the goats water. Here is where some cross fencing would come in handy. To do any fencing you have to rent a drill. You cant even put a Tpost in the ground 98% of the time without drilling first, which means that fencing is even more expensive than usual. So, we have one fence, around the whole 10 acres. A fence around the large garden, a fence around a small area for fruit trees, and a barn with a fenced in barn yard in front of it.

[homebirtha]

You could do perimeter fencing around the 10 acres, then use electric netting for rotation, for most of your critters. It will hold the goats, pigs, and chickens, at least. You'll probably need separate locations for the bull, buck and boar, with stronger fencing.

[retiredbop]

OK, so multiple pastures it is. A buck AND a wether. Hogs have to live alone. Goats and cows can co-habitate, as long as the cows can't get in the goat shed. (Might make it tough for me to get in too since I was planning on miniature cattle.)

I'm not in favor of AI for breeding the sow or the cow. If I get those it will be to help maintain a diverse genetic base. And being rare breeds it's a better than even chance that having a bull or boar nearby is unlikely, so they get "the life of Reilly" for one or two performances per year. (And yes, Willowdale you said that out loud!)

And I gather that I am now looking at more likely 20-25 acres based upon the responses?

Oh, will the GP's be OK with SHC's if they co-habitate with the DG's?

[lmnde]

If you are planning on keeping some of your young for replacements, you are better off with AI for gene diversity initially - you can always keep a nice male of your offsprings' some time down the line [if most head for the freezer anyway a one time line/in-breeding isn't going to do major damage]. I'd also think it is more cost effective in the long run, as you do not have to maintain a male who other than his one or twice a year joy run, only sits, stands or lays around and eats. I'd rather get a second female of whatever you are planning for, to sell the offspring to recover the studfees.

I am also thinking if you only want to keep one or two piglets ea year, you'd be better off financially to buy those two piglets instead of maintaining a boar and a sow ea all year round. If I am not mistaken - breeder pigs are pretty social creatures also - having one boar and one sow in seperate pens all of their life somehow doesn't strike me as troublefree at all - I'd think they get ornery and difficult to handle once mature. I'd ask more info about that part of your plan in the piggy forum...

For curiosity - what are you planning to do with all the milk from one cow and 6-12 goats?

[Christiaan]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

I'm not in favor of AI for breeding the sow or the cow. If I get those it will be to help maintain a diverse genetic base. And being rare breeds it's a better than even chance that having a bull or boar nearby is unlikely, so they get "the life of Reilly" for one or two performances per year.

And I gather that I am now looking at more likely 20-25 acres based upon the responses?
:

Keeping one bull for one cow doesn't make economic sense, and certainly work for genetic diversity. You'll be producing calves from the same, very limited, gene pool year after year after year. Especially, if as you say, there won't be other bulls in the area because of their rarity. AI would make much more sense genetically and economically. Also, Highlands are small, but I wouldn't call them mini. 800 to 1200 lbs probably isn't in the mini range. They also aren't particularly rare, with breeder associations active in most states. http://www.highlandcattleusa.org/ is the American Highland Cattle Association.
Good luck.

[retiredbop]

Highlands are still on the ALBC list of recovering breeds, which is my source for choosing the breeds. Perhaps if there are as many herds around as you say I might be able to "spread the wealth" when it comes to breeding and not have to buy the bull. I've thought about that "one line" thing, but don't see any way around it unless I choose to get WAY bigger than I really think I want to.

[ozark_jewels]

Mike, I'm with you on the AI thing, I don't do it either. It makes finding good breeding sires a little harder but its worth it in my opinion. I just like owning, working with and knowing the animals I'm breeding with. So your not alone in that! Traveling a little to find a quality replacement breeder is worth it to get the right one.
I think more than 10 acres would be a good idea...but thats up to you.
Highlanders aren't mini's really, about as tall as a Jersey. I don't think it would be hard to keep them out of the goat barn. We simply ran a couple strands of barbed wire(tightly) across the opening to the barn on the pasture side. The goats go right under and it keeps the Jerseys out. The lowest strand of barbed wire is right above our goats backs. Or you can try electric if you have really stubborn cows. Or give the goats a door they can squeeze through but is too narrow for the cows. Then make yourself a door on the outside of the barn so that you don't have to duck under the wire to get in the barn. Simple.
Of course the calves go under along with the goats when they want too, but thats ok because by the time they are big enough to cause problems in the barn, they are too big to get through anyway.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

I'm not in favor of AI for breeding the sow or the cow. If I get those it will be to help maintain a diverse genetic base. And being rare breeds it's a better than even chance that having a bull or boar nearby is unlikely, so they get "the life of Reilly" for one or two performances per year. (And yes, Willowdale you said that out loud!)

That bull will occupy the pasture and feed another cow could occupy. With AI you can breed to different bulls. By having 2 cows and AIing you double your genetic diversity EACH YEAR. Of course if you have bull calves you can breed to them, cut them, then finish them.

[rambler]

Re-reading this, I see you are either getting: Raked over the coals for your ideas; Getting constructive questions & dialog to flesh out your plans.

I hope you see this message (as well as the rest!) as more constructive dialog.

What do you plan to do with all the piglets you aren't keeping? You should get 2 or 3 litters per year of 8-12 piglets, or up to 36 little ones (anyhow 16-20), every year. To try for less is not very efficient. In addition to being bio-diverse, you should really try to be efficient, or the whole exersize is moot.

Your scale seems terribly off - one breeding pair for keeping 1-2 offspring. Your overhead is just horrible on all this. There is no efficiency to any of the cattle & hog plans. You will just be burning up grass for little gain.

I hope you start out with one enterprize, and work your way through that one, before starting the next one. Perhaps you will find raising 20 hogs; or 5 cattle; or a dozen goats - will occupy your time & fill your needs _much_ better & more efficently than these micro-numbers of critters. (Poultry can always blend in with anything in small or fair number.)

If this was all just hobby, 'cause I want to' stuff, then raise whatever you want - no nit-picking from me.

But, as you seem to have some goals & plans & a mission with all these critters, I don't think your herds fit the typical yuppie hobby herd that is grown just for fun & thrown away in a few years.

You seem to have a mission, a purpose.

You might want to revisit your goals, and see if some modifications are in order. Something just is not right, very akward, with the number of critters you want to have.

Good luck with the project, whatever path you take.

--->Paul

[sammyd]

Wow,
I would have to agree that maybe picking one or two animals from the list and working up from there would be best.
Get your goats and chickens then see how everything else will fit in.
AI for the pig and cows is sensible if you can find the semen you want or a stud within a reasonable distance. Keeping a boar around for 1 sow or a bull for 1 cow is not sensible. And in no way will increase any genetic pool. Unless you spend money and time looking for a replacement bull yearly. And if you're spending time doing that, you could spend time finding one for stud service and save on feed.
If however you went to 5 sows or so, it might make sense to keep a boar, he would stay busy.
And 2 or 3 groups of 8 from 5 sows can add up to some good money, Sat I watched feeder pigs go for 35 apiece, and the guy that bought em said he had them all sold for 45 once he got them home. Feeder pigs are a nice way to offset some other inputs, since you don't have to feed them out.

Since you're in PA you'll have to put up feed for the winter. At least hay and bedding. So some of you're 10 acres will have to go for that. At least half for all the animals you have listed. Unless you plan to buy in everything, and if you are, leave the bull and boar at the sales barn for sure.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by sammyd

Unless you spend money and time looking for a replacement bull yearly.

But if you sell/eat the offspring every year, there is no need to shop for a replacement stud. That will only be needed if you keep a daughter.

[retiredbop]

rambler, I'm pretty sure most of the responses were meant to be constructive. My skin's too thick to worry about the others.

What I've been doing through my 130 or so posts is sort of trying to flesh out the plan. In all honesty, it really did start out as just a simple country hideaway on 3 acres, with maybe 6 chickens. But DW keeps thinking of other things she'd like to add. And old interests I'd forgotten about have sprung to the fore of my brain; hence the biodiversity, aversion to GM and AI, etc.

The Reader's Digest book Back to Basics, early MEN, and Back Home magazine were inspirations. Most recently it's been Grit and Hobby Farm.

If I'm going to do this I want to do it right. For me, that means supplying as much of my family's food as possible from the farm/garden. But my perhaps eccentric outlook is that it should also be a pleasant experience, not only for us, but for our animals too. I can easily relate to people who consider dogs or cats part of their families. And I was very attached to a couple of our Nubians when I was growing up. So affording our livestock room and comfort will be an important part of my plans.

Excess hogs would be sold off as feeder stock, I guess. I'll be looking for advice from rare breed farmers on methods and numbers for establishing a viable addition to the genetic pool. And as much as I don't like the idea, I'm pretty sure AI will be part of that to diversify the lines.

The cattle are primarily to be trained as draft animals, so maybe just two steers and the heck with the cow. I don't know.

[gracie88]

Draft cattle, how cool If and when you do, I hope you tell us all about it. I also like the idea of raising rare breeds. The only advice I can come up with (from my admittedly limited experience) is, see which of your large animals you could, or would be willing to have bred to outside animals or not bred at all.

Males of any species can be a headache. I know, I have a couple sons and a husband Seriously though, keeping any of the larger guys for breeding one or two females might be more effort than they are worth in terms of extra fencing, housing and potential aggression issues.

Me, I am not overly fond of pigs. I would be more likely to get a smallish herd of smallish cows (Dexters) that I could rotate opposite the goats and raise only two feeder pigs a year in a pen.