Logging methods/alternatives

[popscott]

Logging methods/alternatives

I have a smaller farm that has some big trees that probably need to be harvested. We live in smaller mountain/hilly terrain of SW Virginy, so getting to them IS a factor. All together there may be 20 acres with the bigger trees. I drive down the roads in my area and see where there has been logging done on other properties. What a MESS and what I see as a raping of the land. The places will be torn all to heck and left barren with only trash trees standing or some knocked down, with makeshift roads crisscrossing all over the place. Money is not the object for me here, but the condition of my land when all is done. I have, hopefully, 20 -30 more years here to look at it. I’ve seen the draft horse events/logging (Copper Hill, VA) and would consider that or maybe if dozers can do it without tearing the place to pieces. What would be the best approach to getting this done?

P.S. If I had my wits about me, several years ago they logged the mountain to south of me with a big helicopter. I should have done it then. But that helicopter was the neatest thing to watch work and deliver a big load of 8 logs. It made a round trip in about 2 minutes with a load of 8. No logging roads where cut and they work right through the rain.

Thanks in advance,
Scott
http://www.justkiddinfarm.com/

[Rockin'B]

I'm in that process right now as well. Horse logging will have the least impact and other than that, trying to find a logger that is easy on the ground is hard. Do it in the winter when everything is froze up. They will tear it up to a lesser degree.

Expect to see some damage and figure out what to do with all the tops.

We heat with wood, so we'll keep all that we can. The rest will be burnt.

There are some others here on the site that are into sustainable timber mgmt., maybe they have some good thoughts on the matter.

[Ninn]

we have a local company that does draft horse logging in our area. they pride themselves on leaving little destruction around them and keeping the integrity of your parcel as high as it was when they came in. take a good look at some of the private jobs that your draft horse loggers have done. all that's left behind is a beautifully harvested area, with good new growth. Our company even pulls out the stumps and fills in the holes again. personally, i think this is the best option for smaller logging jobs. it's more environmentally and ecologically sound than just about anything else. after all, how many animals and birds were chased out of their homes by that helicopter? you are going to want those critters later on.........lol

[Farmerwilly2]

I thought I'd seen loggers using cable systems down in the WV/V hills were the ground was just too steep. Might be something to ask about.

[texican]

Just because a tree is large doesn't mean it needs to be harvested. Some trees can live for a few decades, some for hundreds of years, some for millenia.

If they're large and valuable, and the previous owner didn't cut em, the access issue might have saved em. If I didn't need the money, I'd leave em. They can only increase in value in the future (someday you might Need Money!). Also, no matter who cuts the trees, there's gonna be a huge mess left behind, and hardwood limbs will last a coon's age. If access is difficult, getting firewood out will be still be difficult.

My opinion on firewood is never cut trees on your own property for firewood... there are too many timber companies clearcutting, and neighbors trees falling down, and city folks needing trees hauled off.

Good luck.

[EDDIE BUCK]

I agree on just because a tree is mature dose'nt mean it must be cut, but when you live in a hurricane prone state as we do, you know the large mature trees are the first to lay down, and its best to cut them before that happens.What I would do is ask around say in a fifty mile area around your place for a logger,horse or heavy equip, that leaves a site in the best shape possible, and go from there.

[marvella]

i agree, please leave them? there are hardly any old trees left. imo, the loss of old growth forests is a major reason for global warming.

[MELOC]

i am with texican to some extent. there is no reason to sell every mature tree. i just helped my family sell timber and was very selective about what i allowed to be sold. i worked with a forester to mark the timber and we left all white oaks, all the mature maple (i tap them for syrup) and many mature trees of the species that were sold. i really didn't want to see any of it sold, but the family needed money for household repairs, etc. on the other hand, we had a massive wind storm in 1995 that took down about 12-20 really nice, mature poplars that could have been sold and ended up going to waste and making as much of a mess as just leaving the tops behind. in retrospect, i should have sold timber in the 1990's and not wasted those trees.

any logger worth his salt has good equipment these days. the skidder that my loggers used was huge. it allowed the loggers to skid logs without spinning and causing too much damage. there was damage though. the weather was very warm for winter and some areas were muddy. i do have some damage in the muddy areas, but i intend to make those areas permanent roads so i have access to firewood.

in a nutshell, if you are very selective, if your logger has nice tools and if the weather is cold enough, the damage may not be as bad as you fear. there is no reason to sell every mature tree...don't be pressured to do so. many companies will want the tops as well as they can be ground into mulch or processed into other stuff...like fuel pellets. try to find someone who will take it all and you won't have a terrible mess.

you can also make repairs to rut damage a part of the contract. be sure to document everything with video or and extensive pictorial. the use of a forester is a good thing as they can be the middleman who enforces elements of the contract and makes sure your property is returned to a nice condition. try to find one who is not too closely affiliated with the logger you choose, lol. sometimes they can work a bit too closely with one another...making your documentation very important.

take your time and decide what you want to sell. don't be pressured into anything. be sure to get every aspect of the deal in writing and be familiar with the details. this includes the time allowed for the harvest, including starting and ending dates of the cut.

[Rockin'B]

One other thing I have been told by people that have had some bad experiences. Don't let the timber leave your property until you have a cleared check in the bank.

It's impossible to get companies to remediate any contract violations after the timber has left. You then have no leverage and they know it.

[MELOC]

many foresters will have the company agree to having them hold a bond to be released when all aspects of the contract are satisfied.

[bill not in oh]

Originally Posted by MELOC

i am with texican to some extent. there is no reason to sell every mature tree. i just helped my family sell timber and was very selective about what i allowed to be sold. i worked with a forester to mark the timber and we left all white oaks, all the mature maple (i tap them for syrup) and many mature trees of the species that were sold. i really didn't want to see any of it sold, but the family needed money for household repairs, etc. on the other hand, we had a massive wind storm in 1995 that took down about 12-20 really nice, mature poplars that could have been sold and ended up going to waste and making as much of a mess as just leaving the tops behind. in retrospect, i should have sold timber in the 1990's and not wasted those trees.

any logger worth his salt has good equipment these days. the skidder that my loggers used was huge. it allowed the loggers to skid logs without spinning and causing too much damage. there was damage though. the weather was very warm for winter and some areas were muddy. i do have some damage in the muddy areas, but i intend to make those areas permanent roads so i have access to firewood.

in a nutshell, if you are very selective, if your logger has nice tools and if the weather is cold enough, the damage may not be as bad as you fear. there is no reason to sell every mature tree...don't be pressured to do so. many companies will want the tops as well as they can be ground into mulch or processed into other stuff...like fuel pellets. try to find someone who will take it all and you won't have a terrible mess.

you can also make repairs to rut damage a part of the contract. be sure to document everything with video or and extensive pictorial. the use of a forester is a good thing as they can be the middleman who enforces elements of the contract and makes sure your property is returned to a nice condition. try to find one who is not too closely affiliated with the logger you choose, lol. sometimes they can work a bit too closely with one another...making your documentation very important.

take your time and decide what you want to sell. don't be pressured into anything. be sure to get every aspect of the deal in writing and be familiar with the details. this includes the time allowed for the harvest, including starting and ending dates of the cut.

^
^
^
^
I'm with this one...

[DaleK]

Originally Posted by texican

If they're large and valuable, and the previous owner didn't cut em, the access issue might have saved em. If I didn't need the money, I'd leave em. They can only increase in value in the future (someday you might Need Money!).

A lot of people lose out on a lot of income from their woodlot because they believe the same thing. When trees get overly mature and start to go hollow or the heart gets too big they go from very valuable to useless for anything but firewood almost overnight, certainly before most people realize they're losing value. That's not to say that some mature trees don't need to be left for seed or shelter for the smaller ones, but too many get left too late and it's a real shame to see.

Somebody good with a skidding winch or skidder who actually uses their straps and pulleys can do a really nice job, don't be afraid to make them put up a performance bond. Horses can do a good job too but you run across logs they just can't pull.

[bumpus]

Originally Posted by popscott

Logging methods/alternatives

I have a smaller farm that has some big trees that probably need to be harvested. We live in smaller mountain/hilly terrain of SW Virginy, so getting to them IS a factor. All together there may be 20 acres with the bigger trees. I drive down the roads in my area and see where there has been logging done on other properties. What a MESS and what I see as a raping of the land. The places will be torn all to heck and left barren with only trash trees standing or some knocked down, with makeshift roads crisscrossing all over the place. Money is not the object for me here, but the condition of my land when all is done. I have, hopefully, 20 -30 more years here to look at it. I’ve seen the draft horse events/logging (Copper Hill, VA) and would consider that or maybe if dozers can do it without tearing the place to pieces. What would be the best approach to getting this done?

P.S. If I had my wits about me, several years ago they logged the mountain to south of me with a big helicopter. I should have done it then. But that helicopter was the neatest thing to watch work and deliver a big load of 8 logs. It made a round trip in about 2 minutes with a load of 8. No logging roads where cut and they work right through the rain.

Thanks in advance,
Scott
http://www.justkiddinfarm.com/

Contact this man right here, I know him, and have his movies, been to his house, and watched him log with his horses.
He has many years of experience.

He has many people in Virginia that have been trained by him and this man can help you find the right people to do a very good job and take care of your land the right way.

They cut for the future of your timber, and they know the business, and will explain how and why they do what the do, for you and your timber.

Jason Rutledge is well known and cares about the forest, and the land, and the land owner, and the future of trees, and the forest.

Give him a call and he will help you if he can !


Jason Rutledge, President, Healing Harvest Forest Foundation
8014 Bear Ridge Rd.
Copper Hill, VA 24079
540/651-6355
(fax) 540-651-3914
(e-mail) rutledge@swva.net

.

[bumpus]

.
Jason Rutledge and his people have no problem dragging the largest trees out with horses and they will tell you which trees to take, and which ones to leave even the big ones, and they will explaine to you why.

When they are done you will have a healthy wood land, and there will be room for the smaller trees to grow.

They do not cut them all down either that is why they call it

Healing Harvest Forest Foundation because they leave your timber and wood land in a better condition than when they started.

bumpus
.

[Quiet Guy]

DaleK got it right . Trees do deteriorate in value. It is best to take them in their "prime'. This also opens up the woods and allows seedlings to get started. Don't be in to much of a hurry to cut the tops up either, the brush piles give the seedlings a chance to get started and grow before the deer can use them for browse.
You don't need to take all your mature trees all at once. Spread the cut over 10 years or more. This will give you a multiage regeneration, whch is what you want for sustained yield.
If the terrain is permissible I would also recommend horses.

[texican]

Originally Posted by DaleK

A lot of people lose out on a lot of income from their woodlot because they believe the same thing. When trees get overly mature and start to go hollow or the heart gets too big they go from very valuable to useless for anything but firewood almost overnight, certainly before most people realize they're losing value.

My homestead doesn't revolve around me. I revolve around my homestead. I'm only a caretaker on this land. I hope to pass it down to someone in the future in a better shape than I found it. I've got about 20 acres of old growth bottomland hardwoods, and probably 30 or so upland (hickory/post oak) woodlands... some of the trees are over 200yrs old. They predate the first white men arriving. I've got white oak and red oak exceeding 4' dbh, worth quite a chunk of change for each tree. If one dies, I haul it to the mill... otherwise, they provide me with wildlife habitat, soil conservation, and in the fall, a massive mast crop of acorns. In a survival situation, a single tree would feed me for months (in acorn flour).

I know I'm a strange bird, but income 'not gained' is not necessarily lost. I don't believe in liquidating assets for temporary monetary gains. I could clearcut my forests and take a trip around the world, or pay cash for my dream home... but I'd be poorer off mentally. Besides, there aren't too many folks growing old growth hardwoods anymore.

[Quiet Guy]

Texican, Your property is fairly unique. Most of the timber in the eastern half of the U.S. is 100 years old or less.

[highlands]

Horse vs skidder is not the real issue. Either can do sustainable forestry. We log our land all the time. We do it in a sustainable manner, primarily selective thinning, occasional small patch cuts of even age wood, occasional overstory removal. We do it with skidders and we're on steep mountain terrain here in northern Vermont.

Raping the land as you describe is not a horse vs skidder issue - raping the land is simply irresponsible logging. I see that sort of thing. Generally they go in and cherry pick the best wood. Then they turn around and subdivide the raped land up into lots after a few years when the regen has gotten high enough that buyers don't know what they're getting.

There is responsible, sustainable logging and it is irrespective of the tool.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

[popscott]

I shot Jason Rutledge an e-mail. I'll see what he has to say. I’ll be sure and do my homework before I start this adventure. Some one was telling me that the foresters at the US Forestry Dept. come out and grade your forest for select cutting (like for a healthier forest), like it was their job and that is what they are there for????? The local number around here has been disconnected so I’ve not been able to pursue that idea.

Thanks,
Scott

[Pigeon Lady]

Let us know how it goes with Jason Rutledge. We've also thought of contacting him about our forest.

I wanted to go to the demonstration he gave a couple of months ago but something else came up.

Pauline