question about stocking rates and supplemental feeding

[pcdreams]

Well after talking discussing with the conservation agent, it seems stocking rate for douglas county is 1 cow/calf pair / 4 acres. Having about 8 of our 21 acres in pasture, I'm wondering what to do.

I know so very little about cattle/horses, etc. I realize that if I were to have more than this (or even this amount) I would need to provide supplemental hay year round (not just in the winter). This is very discouraging because I had expected to run a dozen or so cattle as well as sheep and goats and a couple draft horses.

I'll explain what we are trying to do.

Would like to some cattle (probably dexters) for beef. would plan to keep 1-2 per year and sell the rest. The goal being the ones sold would pay for the ones kept.

keep either a jersey or several goats for milk/ cheese. sheep for fiber, horses to work/drive/ride.

All suggestion welcome. I'm mostly trying to decide if this is feasible, and if not, if I can rethink my plans or if I should find another parcel.

[texican]

The average stocking rate for the county is probably just that, the average. Is your land more or less productive than the average. If it's in a low wet meadow where you can grow lots of grass, it'll be more productive than a hillside with less soil.

You could still have goats on the other 13 acres, if it's not pasture.

If you're wanting dozens of cattle, I'd think about more acreage. That average figure is probably also for average years... if you're part of the country is in drought, you'll find even the average stocking rate will exceed the carrying capacity.

I've always been told... concerning cows... that you aren't raising cows, but growing grass. If you grow lots of grass, you can have lots of cows... no grass, no cows... as supplemental feeding is rarely if ever cost efficient. Think about it, you'd just be a feedlot type operation if you're having to feed hay year round... it's awful hard to compete with the fella who's raising thier cows on just grass.

good luck

[big rockpile]

Go with Jersey Cow and either borrow a Bull or A.I. and have few Sheep and Goats.

Thats about what we do here,plus throw in Chickens,couple butcher Hogs and maybe a few Rabbits.

Has worked all my life with the acreage you have.

big rockpile

[ksfarmer]

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but, I'm afraid you should revise your plans. No way will 8 acres of grass carry more than 2 or 3 cows with calves, or 2 horses (not drafts), or half a dozen sheep or goats. You will just graze your grass down till it looks like a dry lot. You might look around to see if there is any pasture nearby that you can rent for the grazing season, then use your 8 acres for wintering while feeding hay. In my area 8 acres would maybe feed one cow and calf for 5 or 6 months, if it rained often enough to grow grass. You should pay close attention to what your cons agent is saying. Also ask about animal units, i.e. one cow/calf pair equals how many sheep?

[big rockpile]

Well I know with 20 acres of Timber and brush.I had one calf two years and had 30 head of Goats.

But I opened the timber up and did get some grass going.Moved my animals around on 5 acre Lots about every week.

Horses and Sheep will be hard on the grass.

I know it is nice to use the Horses.But they eat whether they are used or not Tractor and Pickup takes care of what they do with less bother.

big rockpile

[Wolf mom]

I had a similar question a while ago with 17+ acres that a neighbour wanted to lease for 10 cows. The general consensus was that I'd have a feed lot sooner than later even with assurances that he would supplemental feed....

I didn't lease the land to him.

[goatlady]

Your original plan would be considered over-grazing and absolutely ruin the pasture in one season.

[big rockpile]

Originally Posted by goatlady

Your original plan would be considered over-grazing and absolutely ruin the pasture in one season.

Plus the fencing.

big rockpile

[wr]

Like the others I have not intention of raining on your parade but would suggest that it is best to work up to a full operation gradually. You need way more knowledge that you have at the moment and some of the species you mention do not do well together at all. I would like to hear from some of the rotational grazers though on this matter because they would have answers on how to maximize the usable land.

[pcdreams]

rotational grazing is something I want to do. But I think on this small an acreage, even this isn't going to help much. Sigh!!

BR. I'd like to hear more about what you've been doing with the jerseys.

[kentuckysteader]

Well I do see one upside. You are planning to raise dexter cattle. They are a smaller breed of cattle and from what I understand they produce good milk as well as beef. You should start out small (no more than two-three cow/calf pairs) and learn everything you can ... especially if you don't have any prior experience!! Don't make the mistake of overgrazing your land. You can probably run some goats on the brush but I wouldn't have any other livestock grazing on the dexter's pasture.

If I were considering raising the dexters, Some Questions I would be pondering are:

1. Do I have a reliable source of water?
2. Do I have solid fencing in place?
3. Do I know what type of grasses/forages/weeds I have? Do I have a mix of warm and cool weather grasses?

These are just a few of the questions you will need to ponder and answer long before you obtain the livestock ...

Good Luck ...

[Maura]

Your first need to know how productive your pasture is now, and how much more productive it could be with rotational grazing and perhaps a little seeding. Then, contact someone who pastures Dexters. A Dexter is going to have different requirements than another type of cattle. Your agent quoted you an average for the kind of cows commonly raised in your county (and even possibly not, possibly just something off a generic chart). You can raise sheep on the same acreage with the cows, and determine the acreage as though you didn't have cows as they tend to prefer to eat forbes whereas cows prefer grass.

Also, depending what kind of wood you have, you could put the sheep and horses in the woods on the days that it is really hot, which would take some load off the pasture.

[agmantoo]

I am a rotation/management intensive grazing producer. I live in what I believe to be a comparable grass producing area as yourself. I reseached Ava Mo and I find you have plenty of rain and you are only slightly farther North than I am here in NC. I cannot understand from my research as to why the carrying capacity is as low as you were told. I am convinced that my carrying capacity using rotational grazing is at least twice what the local ag people would state. I graze cattle 365 days per year without baled hay. I have leased acreage to horse people and observing the damage done by horses I would not suggest your owning them. As for goats I do not think you would have to figure them in the equation if you only had a couple per acre. The key IMO to getting the headcount up is to think unconventionally. Maximizing the carrying capacity requires management. I am working currently with a dairy farmer who is converting to rotational grazing. He is having some difficulty putting the old habits away. It is difficult to convey how to make the change. Your inputs from the extension people are not always what suits your style and your farm. As stated in an above post, you are in essence a grass producer. You have to learn how to grow a prolific grass and how to maximize the availablity of that grass during growing and dormant periods. You have to learn how to make what forage that is available go the duration. You have to have animals that will hold condition on what forages you have. I am uncertain of how the Dexters would perform on my forage. To rotation graze you also have to want it to work with a passion. Once you get the "system" understood you will question as to why you and others ever considered anything else. You will never stop learning as you continue the practice. It can and will work for you IMO PS...the extension agent that serves my area would like to use rotation grazing at his farm but cannot/will not abandon the conventional methods, go figure! I will attempt to answer any grazing questions you may have.

[pcdreams]

Originally Posted by kentuckysteader

If I were considering raising the dexters, Some Questions I would be pondering are:

1. Do I have a reliable source of water?
2. Do I have solid fencing in place?
3. Do I know what type of grasses/forages/weeds I have? Do I have a mix of warm and cool weather grasses?

No water yet, though that will be taken care of before we move (and long before we purchase livestock).

the property has good perimeter fence for cattle. Would/will have to put up woven wire for goats and probably a hot wire on the existing fence. Additionally I'd like to cross fence, both for rotational grazing and to keep the goats in their own area.

currently the pastures are predominantly fescue, but we would like to convert them over to orchardgrass,lespedeza (sp?), and ladino cover. Had also though about doing one of the pastures in warm seasons but haven't decided about that yet.

I need to talk with our neighbor, he runs 40 head of milk cow on his 100 acres.

[big rockpile]

Originally Posted by pcdreams

rotational grazing is something I want to do. But I think on this small an acreage, even this isn't going to help much. Sigh!!

BR. I'd like to hear more about what you've been doing with the jerseys.

With Jersey Cow breed it with an Angus Bull,have a good butchering Calf.The Cow should give plenty of milk for the Calf and what you need.

As far as carrying capacity here in southern Mo. we don't have much Top Soil,we have very few months of good pasture.May you can figure quit feeding Hay,but by July its getting dry and not getting any growth.Might get a short burst of New growth in September or October,but you will be feeding Hay in November.

The only way you are going to killyour Fecue is to spray it and burn it,before you think about planting other grasses.But I feel it would be worth it.Plus you don't want your Horses on Fescue.

big rockpile

[eacrouch]

Hello, I have been reading this thread. We live in South Central Kansas near the OK border. We have 80 acres and I would like to run cows, possibly dexter or belted galloways. Our stocking rate is 7-10 acres per cow. I think we can do better with rotational grazing but I don't know anything about it. Do any of you have a good recommendation for books on rotational grazing. Thanks, Erin

[ArmyDoc]

I am in much the same stage as you are - learnign and planning for my move to the country.

I would suggest buying a copy of "Grass fed by Cattle" by Ruechel. It covers everything from breeding, herd sellection, and of course grass / pasture management. He is reporting 2-400% increases in efficiency using an intensive rotation cycle vs conventional grazing plans. From what I've read (I'm about 1/4 of the way through it), his reasoning is sound both from an ecological as well as a practical standpoint.

I think Dexter cattle sound perfect for you. I'm strongly considering them for myself. They are a dual purpose breed, so you get the benefits of both milk and beef production. Also, from what I've read you should be able to have a a stocking rate that is 1.5 to 2x that of a full sized animal because of their smaller size.

Two other authors you should check out are Allan Nation and Joe Salatin.

Hope this helps.

[Jim S.]

On stocking rates, every place is different. In my area, one cow/calf per acre is normally fine. We are in an exceptional drought now, worst since they started keeping records, so one cow/calf per 10 acres is more like it. But in a normal rainfall year, this land supports one "unit" (cow and calf) per acre.

I recall my FIL going to Texas and telling a rancher that, and the guy flipped. He could not believe anyplace could carry that many cattle. But it's normal here to do that...when we are not in exceptional drought. Out of 100 years, you can carry one unit per acre here 95 of those.

Every place is different, like I say. If you go to the western Plains states, there are areas that in some years can carry one unit per acre, but in most years would carry one unit per 10 or even 15 acres. That's what suckered the pioneers into overstocking out West, the one or two lush years. They never counted on the 15 scarce years to follow.

You need to plan for the carrying capacity of your area (not some other area), then once you get going you can assess how many more you can add safely, taking into consideration the droughty years, too. That's one cool thing about staying on a place and working it. You get to know what's a normal rythym and what's not, so you can adjust.

I think your agent's advice is what I would follow. He or she knows far more about the general overall area picture than just about anyone. Then see how it goes, and add slowly if you can in future years.

I rotationally grazed cows, and it does result in more grass productivity and more pounds per acre of beef. But it's not a panacea, so don't get tempted into thinking rotating your pastures will be the cure for overstocking. That's a trap.

Lastly, please consider your hay costs. If you use all your land to graze, you will be at the mercy of the hay market every year, and so your costs for overwintering must be closely monitored if you expect to make a profit. In my situation, I would use all my land to run cows over the winter, but would confine them to just half of it in the high grass growth periods of very early spring and over the summer, and cut hay off the other half in summer and fall. Then it was back to pasturing cows on the whole farm in the winter again. This way, I got some free fertilizer for my hay ground, too.

A guy would cut my hay on halves, and I basically had my supplemental winter feed for free, in addition to using my whole farm as pasture in the hardest months.

The point is, start off smaller and slower, so there is less downside risk, and see what innovations your land will allow as you grow into it. Good luck.