Propane versus electric

[CJ]

So in our ongoing debate to go offgrid or not, I'm curious as to the feasibility of some propane appliances instead of electric running off of solar. Like the hot water heater, oven, refrigerator.

These things work just fine for us in the RV, so there wouldn't be an adjustment. And they don't use a lot of propane either. We'll heat with wood.

Are we in any danger of propane shortages?

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

[LisaInN.Idaho]

We use all propane appliances. I don;t know of any impending shortages but if there is we have a wood cookstove as backup.

[Ramblin Wreck]

There are no propane shortages in our area, but its price has risen much faster than electricity in the past few years. As you have already noted, the propane refrigerators work great in RV's, but I think they vent them out the side (not sure). That may be a consideration as you are designing/building. The propane hot water heater and stove work great.

All that being said, I would personally opt to tie into the grid if possible and use any solar based/fueled system to "run the meter" backwards...if there is a choice. Best wishes as you move forward with your planning/building.

[Wayne02]

You gals have propane powered hairdryers??????

[cfabe]

If you do some more research into solar power, I think you'll find that as far as the hot water heater and oven go, your only choice will be propane, electric ones will draw just too much power to supply unless you have gobs of money to put into solar panels and batteries and inverters. Generally if you're going with solar electric power, you can forget about any large electric heating appliances (hot water, clothes dryer, oven/stove, etc)

[LisaInN.Idaho]

Originally Posted by Wayne02

You gals have propane powered hairdryers??????

Lehman's did sell a butane curling iron, but no, we flip on the genny to use the hair dryer in our house.

[SolarGary]

Originally Posted by CJ

So in our ongoing debate to go offgrid or not, I'm curious as to the feasibility of some propane appliances instead of electric running off of solar. Like the hot water heater, oven, refrigerator.

These things work just fine for us in the RV, so there wouldn't be an adjustment. And they don't use a lot of propane either. We'll heat with wood.

Are we in any danger of propane shortages?

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

Hi,
Using solar electricity to power hot water heaters or ovens is prohibitive.

Efficient electric fridges are OK off solar electricity -- look for the ones with the good Energy Star ratings. The propane gas fridges are very inefficient, but do work OK.

For water heating, I think the best bet would be a solar water heater coupled with a propane water heater when there is not enough sun. Solar water heaters use the sun to directly heat the water, and are much more efficient and much much less expensive than solar electric panels running an electric water tank.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...er_heating.htm

In general, solar electricity is so expensive that most people run as little as possible with electricity when there is another alternative.

Gary

[CJ]

Gary, why do you say propane fridges are very inefficient? The one we have in our RV works great. Although we run it via electric 90% of the time, but when we boondock it works just as well on propane. Of course it's only like 7 cubic feet, rather than the larger 18 cubic or so feet ones that are available.

Lisa, with all your appliances being propane, what size tank do you have, and how often do you have to refill it?

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

[highlands]

We used to use propane for hot water, light, cooking. Over the years I have read of many houses that blew up. There have been two deadly propane 'accidents' in our area. Our propane lines always leaked. The company never got them fixed despite years of visits. I got headaches from it. We stopped using it. My headaches basically went away. We no longer have the danger of the house blowing up.

For hot water, cooking and heat I like wood. I can harvest all my own wood. Wood doesn't blow up. Chimney fires I can easily prevent. Wood has been burned in our house for over 200 years - it's still standing. Wood is sustainable and costs me almost nothing.

We do have grid electric for computers, lights, refrigeration. That will change as I intend to build a micro-hydro. Our electric needs are modest and we have lots of head and lots of water.

In terms of refrigeration, consider a spring box. I plan to build one in our new tiny cottage. The water coming out of the mountain is always 45°F. To accent that I may use lunar panels (my reverse solar panels) or solid state (Peltier Effect).

For lighting our new tiny cottage has lots of windows - something the old farm house sorely lacks. The old house is dark and requires lighting year round all day. The new house only needs minor lighting. What lighting we will have will be LED and VHO electronic energized fluorescent bulbs - I already use the latter over my marine aquarium which is our big energy user.

So, I would avoid the propane due to health and safety concerns. Wood, judicious use of electric, big windows, large thermal mass, earth air tubes and good design help keep the energy needs down.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://HollyGraphicArt.com/
http://NoNAIS.org

[MaineFarmMom]

We have a propane stove and hot water heater at home. We use propane for the fridge, chest freezer, stove and lights in the cabin. I like electric lights much better than the propane. The propane lights aren't as bright as electric.

[canfossi]

I am off-grid, and have a propane stove and hot water, we also have propane for heat, in-floor heating. The washer is electric, no dryer except the line and the fridge is electric. I also have wood heat as back-up. Chris

[keljonma]

Some friends of ours used to have LP appliances similar to the ones you can purchase from Lehman's. They seemed pretty happy with them. I lost track of them when they divorced, but I'm pretty sure the appliances had nothing to do with that situation...

[OntarioMan]

IMO - solor power should be considered only when you have no other option. Solar power systems of any usable size are expensive and complicated for the minimal amount of energy they create - and that money would be much better spent on building a more energy efficient house, purchasing energy efficient appliances, investing in solar heating, purchasing a more energy efficient vehicle, etc. etc.

Solar power and off-grid quickly gets complicated - solar power systems - batteries - generators - propane. On-grid, you could easily get by with grid electricity and wood.

A benefit to off-grid may be the lower price and lower tax on unserviced land - but these vary widely depending on where you are.

[QuiltingLady2]

We have propane heat, heat pump, water etc. Not, stove, dryer, or apliances.

The cost of propane has gone up and up and up.

If I had the option of solar I'd go for it. We do live in the PNW. Even better would be a water generator powered home.

Wish we had bought that property with the little year round creek........

[WisJim]

Years ago we used a propane refrigerator, first one from an RV and then a full sized servel. We replaced it with a Sun Frost and added PV panels to our windgenerator system, and decided that in the lifetime of the refrigerator, the PV panels would pay for themselves in the cost of propane saved. The refrigerator and PV panels are still working fine, and will be 26 years old this summer. Propane is a petroleum product and will only get more expensive and harder to get.

Our PV (solar electric) and wind system paid for themselves long ago, and should keep working for decades longer.

[SolarGary]

Originally Posted by CJ

Gary, why do you say propane fridges are very inefficient? The one we have in our RV works great. Although we run it via electric 90% of the time, but when we boondock it works just as well on propane. Of course it's only like 7 cubic feet, rather than the larger 18 cubic or so feet ones that are available.

Lisa, with all your appliances being propane, what size tank do you have, and how often do you have to refill it?

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

Hi,
We have one in our RV also, and I agree it works fine.

Its just that when you look at the amount of energy it uses compared to a good energy star electric one its very high. I used to have some actual numbers on this, but can't locate them right now.
Some of the websites that sell gas fridges for homes have gas consumption information -- you can compare this to an electric fridge by using the fact that there are 27 KWH in one gallon of propane -- so if a propane fridge uses a quarter of a gallon a day, that equivalent to 27/4 = 6.7 KWH per day.

There is some useful information on the www.Backwoodssolar.com
-- use "Select a Product", then pick Refrigeration -- its lists both electric and gas fridges for off-grid use. It looks like a good electric fridge might use around 1 KWH per day, while the gas ones seem to be around a quarter gallon of propane, which would be more like 7 KWH per day.
So, I think it boils down to paying some more up front for more PV panels to drive an efficient electric fridge, or paying more over time to power a less efficient gas fridge? If the numbers above are correct (1 KWH vs 7 KWH), and you pay $2 per gallon for propane, the saving would be $2* (7-1)/27= 44 cents a day for the electric one -- or, $160 a year. From a greenhouse gas emissions standpoint, the PV powered fridge is a zero CO2 emissions solution.

Some more info on fridges here, including a converted chest freezer used as a fridge that uses only 60 KWH per year!
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects...htm#Appliances

Gary

[Old Vet]

Why limit yourself to one choice? use the electricy for the small stuff and propane for the larger stuff.

[CJ]

Well if I tell you my reasons you'll laugh at me. LOL I can't see any good way for the power company to get lines down to where we want to build, without cutting straight across our land, which I absolutely couldn't stand.

If we can convince them to run the lines straight down the property border (along the fenceline), then cut over a bit and we'll run it underground from there... well then that would be okay. But I've a feeling we won't get to choose how we want the lines.

I can't stand looking at power lines. It may be silly, but I DETEST the way the look. Ugh!

The Wandering Quilter's Life in a Box!

[Ramblin Wreck]

Originally Posted by CJ

I can't stand looking at power lines. It may be silly, but I DETEST the way the look. Ugh!

I felt the same way. It cost some $'s, but they put the power lines where I wanted them. It's run underground for about 200 feet through the woods to the house. You can't see the power lines at all from the house.

[Old Vet]

If you have the money you can get anything done. You can burry it all the way, run it along the fence row. or take what most people have and live with it.