Veg oil diesel users fined by state (NC)

[Wayne02]

We were just talking about Veg oil / biodiesel in another thread on the forum and I came across this story this morning. How many of you veg oil / biodiesel folks have had to post bonds and such like this?

Also, this article states that costcos soybean oil, "costs a third more than diesel". Is that true??

Charlotte man converts car to veggie oil, gets fined by state
by The Associated Press
published June 11, 2007 5:43 am
Read all 11 comments » e-mail this Print this

Charlotte – Thumbing your noise at oil sheiks can cost you in North Carolina.

Bob Teixeira, a Charlotte guitar teacher, took a stand against U.S. dependence on foreign oil last fall and spent $1,200 to convert his 1981 diesel Mercedes to run on vegetable oil. He buys soybean oil in 5-gallon jugs at Costco, which costs him about a third more than diesel.

Despite his good intentions, the state fined Teixeira $1,000 for not paying motor fuel taxes. North Carolina officials also told him that to legally use veggie oil here he'd have to first post a $2,500 bond.

Such penalties have also been levied against other North Carolina drivers whose vehicles were powered by alternative fuels.

"If somebody was going to go to this much trouble to drive around in a car that uses soybean oil, they ought to be exempt" from state taxes, said state Sen. Stan Bingham, R-Davidson, who drives a diesel Volkswagen fueled by used soybean oil that sports a sign reading "Goodbye, OPEC."

Teixeira and other independent-minded drivers may get a break from the state. The N.C. Department of Revenue, which fined Teixeira, has asked lawmakers to waive the $2,500 bond for small fuel users. Also, Revenue officials told Teixeira the department will compromise on his fine.

But the state's not about to drop its taxes on all fuels used in highway vehicles. North Carolina's 29.9-cent tax on a gallon of gas generates $1.2 billion each year to pay for road construction.

"With the high cost of fuel right now, the department does recognize that a lot of people are looking for relief," said Reggie Little, assistant director of the motor fuel taxes division. "We're not here to hurt the small guy, we're just trying to make sure that the playing field is level."

Few states are prepared to regulate new fuels, according to the National VegOil Board, which promotes vegetable oil fuel.

"State offices do not have the forms to appropriately and fairly deal with VegOil, nor the staff to enforce the non-existent forms," said director Cynthia Shelton. "So either they tell people inquiring about compliance to get lost, or they make them jump through a bunch of arbitrary hoops."

North Carolina has taken steps toward alternative fuels in official vehicles, with lawmakers in 2005 ordering state agencies to replace 20 percent of their annual petroleum use with alternatives by 2010. Ethanol can be used now in about 6,000 of the state's 8,500 vehicles and the state fleet also includes about 135 gas-electric hybrids.

N.C. Department of Revenue officials noticed Teixeira last month near Lowe's Motor Speedway while they were checking fuel tanks of diesel RVs for illegal fuel. The bumper sticker on his car that reads "Powered by 100% vegetable oil" grabbed their attention.

"It was like some twist of fate that put me there," he said. "It was like I was asking for them to stop me."

While he believes Revenue officials are simply doing their jobs, Teixeira doesn't think it's fair to lump him in with those who purposely try to avoid fuel taxes.

"Individuals who are trying to do the right thing environmentally cannot and should not continue to take this kind of financial hit," he wrote Gov. Mike Easley.

Teixeira says he'll pay the fine and apply for a state fuel license.

"I'm ready to get myself legal," he said, "and start using vegetable oil again."

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pb...D=200770611001

[dezeeuwgoats]

DH and I are getting ready to convert our dodge diesel to veggie oil. It does cost more to buy new veggie oil, than it does to use diesel. The savings comes from recyling USED vegetable oil from sources like restuarants.

Glood to see this article, I need to look into this in my state.

Niki

[Shadow]

Knew this was going to happen. Making your own gas, diesel fuel, or moonshine can be done but to be done with out going to jail you have to pay the taxes. If you don't pay the tax you will have big problems. Knew a man who made great moonshine, really good smooth stuff, decided to go legal made the moonshine, put it in quart mason jars, paid the taxes, and there it was the tax stamp on the mason jar ring. Havent seen it around in a long time but it was a good drink.
Doing it on a small scale is going to be hard, paper work is a killer. Cost will be a factor. Fact is it is really not going to be worth it, burning french fry oil will not save you enough because sooner or later someone will start buying all the used oil and processing it and with out free oil it will no longer be done.
And I do not want to pay your share of road building and repair just so you can drive on veggie oil and perhaps save a little money.
Don't know what the answer is but french fry oil is not it, its going to have to be done but how is not known.

[Ken Scharabok]

Discussion on other thread had one party say soybean oil is $3.50 a gallon at COSTCOs. Locally diesel is around $2.90 gallon.

However, if you go to www.biodieselnow.com they indicate you don't need to use much vegetable oil in diesel to receive significant benefits, such as a quieting of the engine and longer life through the lubricity provided by the vege oil. They say some benefits will occur even with 95/05 diesel/vege oil.

[Ken Scharabok]

I do think the state has the right to collect taxes on fuels used on roads to the extent practical. For example, on gas/electric hybrids it would be impractical to charge something for electricity unless it was a mileage tax which has been looked at in a couple of states. That is you pay so much per mile driven regardless of what fuel was used.

I can't argue with the logic those vehicles cause wear and tear on the roads, which must be repaired, so those not paying taxes on biofuels are forcing someone else to pay for those cost.

On WVO or user processed oil (such as a farmer pressing soybeans for the meal as cattle feed and the oil as fuel) it might have to be a voluntary system, with a large fine for non-compliance. How could they tell? Perhaps random sampling, such as they were doing at the race track as noted in the article. (Or they could have inspectors going around sniffing exhaust fumes.)

[kendall j]

Just another event in a long and growing list of boneheaded bureaucratic decisions that are making me ashamed to say I was born and raised in the state. Things won't change until the fat and happy democrats' near 50 year hold on state government is broken.

Kendall

[Ken Scharabok]

Excuse me but just what is wrong with the state wanting road users to pay for new ones or to repair existing ones on an equal usage basis? Otherwise those using biofuels are passing on their fair share to others.

A per gallon tax is about as fair as it is going to get. Someone can argue someone who gets 10 mpg pays more than someone who gets 20 mpg, but the first vehicle likely causes more road wear and tear than the second.

[Dahc]

Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok

Excuse me but just what is wrong with the state wanting road users to pay for new ones or to repair existing ones on an equal usage basis? Otherwise those using biofuels are passing on their fair share to others.

Nothing, provided that's what's happening with the money.

Around here, gas taxes are steady. Road maintanance is not. I say they leave the guy alone. Off road vehicles get charged a gas tax for road maintenance as well, where is their usage? Why are they being charged?

[fantasymaker]

Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok

Someone can argue someone who gets 10 mpg pays more than someone who gets 20 mpg, but the first vehicle likely causes more road wear and tear than the second.

Actually there is ALMOST no such thing as road wear. A properly built road does not wear out,witness the Roman roads that are still in use in places.
What actually happens is that inadacately build roads fail catastopically.

[kendall j]

The problem in NC is that the gas tax was supposed to be reduced drastically in 2000. However, when highway funds (read gas tax) are misappropriated year after year by a group of people who are not held accountable by the people, many people do find a problem with paying taxes on fuel that are at least double that of every surrounding state. Besides, the guy had to pay saled tax on his purchase, and I am sure the state won't deduct that from what he "owes". Also, where is the line drawn, if I drive an electric car or solar car, are they going to charge me fuel taxes for it? How can they even calculate that? If I convert a car, I'll just do the smart thing and keep quiet about it.

[Ken Scharabok]

"if I drive an electric car or solar car, are they going to charge me fuel taxes for it? How can they even calculate that?"

As mentioned above, one approach being considered by several states (believe OR was the last one) was a mileage tax. You would have to report mileage of all of your vehicles at the start and end of each year. You would then pay so much tax per each mile driven regardless of how powered. For verification I suspect each time you were stopped for a potential traffic violation the mileage would be recorded and reported for comparison.

If you purchase fuel for off the road usage it would somewhat depend on what vehicle you used 'off road'. A 4-4 would like have that mileage counted while an ATV wouldn't. Criteria may be if it has an odometer you have to report and pay (which would exclude farm vehicles such as tractors and combines).

I suspect paying would be quarterly to spread out the revenue stream.

And, yes, TN recently dipped into road fuel tax revenue to use elsewhere when they were balancing the budget. Now that the state is running a substantial surplus not a hint of giving it back.

I would go with the argument until biofuel becomes a signficant player, say 1% of all fuels, it isn't worth trying to collect road fuel taxes on for the additional revenue generated.

[EDDIE BUCK]

ITS ROUGH TO HAVE TO PAY SOMEONE TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO OR NOT DO AIN'T IT? YOU WOULD THINK IT WOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND , AFTERALL AINT WE THE BOSS? BUT WAIT WE CAINT BE THE BOSS OR IT WOULD BE THE OTHER WAY AROUND WOULD'NT IT.

[Ken Scharabok]

If you read the article it appears to me state officials are bending over backwards to accommodate the situation, such as not having to make the guy pay the bond (or at least a compromise is mentioned).

On other thread someone mentioned this also happened in IL, I believe. When state legislatures found out about situation action was being taken to change the law to accommodate alternate fuel use.

In other thread someone also mentioned they tried sending in the road fuel tax to the state, based on the gallons of WVO they used, with a letter explaining it what it was for. State send back check with a cover letter. They put it aside as a CYA possibility in the future.

[MELOC]

Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok

Excuse me but just what is wrong with the state wanting road users to pay for new ones or to repair existing ones on an equal usage basis? Otherwise those using biofuels are passing on their fair share to others.

A per gallon tax is about as fair as it is going to get. Someone can argue someone who gets 10 mpg pays more than someone who gets 20 mpg, but the first vehicle likely causes more road wear and tear than the second.

i think the wear and tear argument could really take some tangents. perhaps one vehicle just needs a tune-up but does little to harm the roads.

i am one who favors consumer based taxation and would normally support using fuel taxes, or increased fuel taxes, to pay for roads if it meant that states could ditch the federal money umbilical cord and lower my federal taxes. in this case, perhaps another solution could be replacing fuel taxes with increased vehicle registration fees, or create another category of vehicle registration much like having different fees for a 1 ton truck compared to a half ton truck. i think the fuel permit mentioned above seems a bit pricey.

[DrippingSprings]

Originally Posted by Ken Scharabok

Excuse me but just what is wrong with the state wanting road users to pay for new ones or to repair existing ones on an equal usage basis? Otherwise those using biofuels are passing on their fair share to others.

A per gallon tax is about as fair as it is going to get. Someone can argue someone who gets 10 mpg pays more than someone who gets 20 mpg, but the first vehicle likely causes more road wear and tear than the second.

playing the devils advocate here

but by the same token people who get say 30mpg or even 25 will on average drive more than say someone who gets 12. So since they use the road on average 2.5 times as much(as per the fed gov stats) shouldnt they be inflicting 2,5 times as much road wear? And if so how is it fair to those of us who drive something that gets 10 who drive less?

If I buy 10 gallons and get 120 miles and they buy 10 gallon and drive 300. They are in fact causing more wear than me correct? But yet Im having to buy an additional 15 -18 gallons to get the same drive.

So why should it be fair that I pay three times the tax they do because they are driving a hybrid etc.

If those that get that high mileage are given a break because they choose something else to drive then why shouldnt the veggie heads?

[Ken Scharabok]

"but by the same token people who get say 30mpg or even 25 will on average drive more than say someone who gets 12. So since they use the road on average 2.5 times as much(as per the fed gov stats) shouldnt they be inflicting 2,5 times as much road wear? And if so how is it fair to those of us who drive something that gets 10 who drive less?"

My assumption is the larger the vehicle the poor mileage it gets. The larger the vehicle the more wear and tear on the roads they do. Take semi-trucks. I've read they are real road killers, but at something like 2-4 mpg they do pay a lot of road fuel taxes. Whether or not they pay their fair share is another debate.

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

"However, if you go to www.biodieselnow.com they indicate you don't need to use much vegetable oil in diesel to receive significant benefits, such as a quieting of the engine and longer life through the lubricity provided by the vege oil. They say some benefits will occur even with 95/05 diesel/vege oil."

ken I think you are mistaking Biodiesel and Veggie oil. One is converted, and the other is not. They are not one and the same thing.

My question is - how much veggie oil can I blend with regular diesel and not have it matter to my engine?? I would like to maybe run 20% raw used veggie oil and not have to modify anything on my 97 F-350 7.3 liter powerstroke and soon on my 2008 VW Jetta TDI. Running 20% FREE unbiodieseled veggie oil would cut my fuel cost by 20%. It also might take the place of the lubricity additive I am supposed to be adding due to the very low sulfur diesel.

[suburbanite]

Originally Posted by comfortablynumb

when poop becomes valuable, the poor will be born without butt holes.

[jross]

Originally Posted by fantasymaker

Actually there is ALMOST no such thing as road wear. A properly built road does not wear out,witness the Roman roads that are still in use in places.
What actually happens is that inadacately build roads fail catastopically.

That and overweight rigs constantly pounding that thinner asphalt. A truck may pay $3000 in road tax, but may do 3 million worth of wear and tear.

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

It would be fun to take a state to court when they try to collect taxes for using something like waste veggie oil in your diesel. If they were to try and use the taxes not paid, but miles driven tact to charge you, then a court would be bound to force them to charge the same to drivers of hybrid vehicles (equal treatment under the law). Of course doing so would KILL the sales of hybrid vehicles.

My solution long term is to buy one of the new 2008 VW Jetta TDI vehicles which are getting an HONEST 45-50 mpg in trials. The 2008 Jetta TDI is also supposed to have a 6 speed manual tranny and won't have to have the urea injection exhaust system.