How much,,,,,revisited

[retiredbop]

See, I'm the DNG here (Dumb New Guy, although I think I prefer Dreamin' New Guy). Although I was told once that knowing you know nothing at all made you smarter than the person who thinks they know it all.

I'm looking at a horse(s) as a means to make the farm as self-sufficient and oil-free as possible. I was reading somewhere (probably Rural Heritage's website) about a rotation of something like oats, hay, and pasture; so that's what the horse has to do. Plow, harvest, mow, rake, transport. Also drag some lumber now and then. So I need to plant enough oats and mow enough hay to feed 1 or 2 horses, a dozen or so goats, a dozen or so Babydoll sheep (if DW enjoys her carding and spinning classes), 1 or 2 dozen chickens, and maybe 2-6 miniature cattle from harvest to harvest.

Chickens for eggs and meat, goats for milk and meat, sheep possibly for wool and meat, and maybe even some small cows for beef. We'll be doing lots of gardening to produce most of our own veggies and potatoes. (Hey, what kind of Irishman would I be without my potatoes?)

I will be in an enviable position however, because being retired from the Feds I will already have my income covered. The farm needs to do nothing more than pay for itself. I don't need to make a dime doing it nor count on it to build my nest egg. I would just like to live out my life in the company of animals I enjoy and eating food that I know where it comes from and what's in it.

So what is your best estimate of the size homestead/farm I would be trying to buy? What acreage am I going to plant, and what do I keep in pasture. Is there a different crop or maybe a different rotation I sohuld know about?

Guide me, o' enlightened ones.

[anniew]

I think you could read 5 books and not get all the answers for all those different kinds of animals.
You could just raise one or two and then buy/trade/barter for the other types with locals who raise them like you would.

[Farmerwilly2]

These kinds of questions seem to come up pretty often. The answers are usually the same also, essentially 'see local listings'. There are so many variables I don't think someone could give you a pat answer. Your climate, soil conditions, livestock requirements will all have a bearing on 'how much'. What works for one could be a lot different for someone just 30 miles away.

[HilltopDaisy]

www.smallfarmersjournal.com

I must say, I'm enjoying your sincere, enthusiastic questions! You remind me of myself, several years ago (minus the pension/retirement). You are the kind of person that this website is meant for.

I think the most cost effective thing you can do is to grow as much food for the critters and your family as possible, and save seed. If you are going to harvest firewood, in addition to hay and corn, etc., I'm going to say minimum of 40 acres.

[edcopp]

Sounds like you worked for the FEDS a bit too long.

With that said you are talking about 50 acres, 100 hours a week personal work schedule, an investment of $100,000 to $250,000 for the property with no return on the investment, and no income for the investor. Just a good clean break even deal.

My suggestion would be to dream in smaller bites.

[bill not in oh]

Although your goal of low-input farming is certainly admirable, one thing you should consider is the effect that you potentially have on the folks in your neighborhood and indeed on the industry of having a goal of not being profitable. For instance if you are willing to sell meat chickens for $1.75 @ lb because that's what you need to 'break even' and your neighbor is trying to make a living and needs to sell for $2.85 @ lb. .... I would consider that to be contrary to the spirit of the legitimate industry since your original objective is to break even - you dilute the opportunity of others to operate profitably. Your neighbors still have an opportunity to operate profitably, they just have to work harder and smarter than you - and they will - you just make it more challenging for them by operating a hobby in competition with their enterprise.


Frankly, I find the concept of working for no profit to be either socialist or communist, which is ok - except that it is in direct contridicton to capitalism.

After all... how much harder do you have to work to make a profit than break even?.... zero

Many folks in this community make a living from their farm/homesteading operation. You just requested information asking how to undercut their efforts...

[EDDIE BUCK]

LOL,Lets see you asked how much land you would need to plant, to feed the animals? Im not a know it all ether and am not complaining about your thread,but you asked an impossible question. How can anyone answer a question like, how much you would need to plant for one or two horses.which is it. Two horses eat twice as much as one, chickens, two dozen eats twice as much as one dozen, miniature cattle, 2-6. 6 eats three times what two would. See what I mean. "Just a suggestion" Find that farm that you would like to have. Find a local farmer or two, in the area. He can tell you what and how much to plant. He knows that land and what it will grow, I would talk with them before I bought the farm. Their knowledge possibly will be the deciding factor on buying the farm. When you ask them about how much to plant for animal feed, ask how much for one horse, one doz chickens ect, and then if you want 2 horses and 2 doz chickens, just double the land amount. Good luck

[the mama]

It is very hard to be self-sustaining. Concentrate on the basics. Make a 5 year plan to add "production pathways". Start with chickens, get Joel Salatin's book "How to make $50,000 on 20 acres in 6 months". This book will tell you the amount of land needed to move a chicken pen daily for 6 weeks (1\4 acre) and help you learn about feed conversion rates. ie: how much feed to produce one pound of gain for chickens (2.5 was mine, varies on individual basis). With this info you can calculate how much feed to grow to then produce chickens.
Consider dual use animals, like a donkey to plow and act as guard animal for goats. How much beef do you really need? Make a menu, list foods and calculate how much you use yearly. You may then grow it or purchase it from neighbors. Then you need to can, freeze or dry. You will need storage area.
My daughter can not live without her horse, but I consider her a hobby/expense.
Also an old book, "Five acres and Independance" by M.G. Kains. This is a great book, prices are outdated but the math concepts still work.
Good luck and realize that life is a work in progress, you can't have it all overnight.

[FreeRanger]

Bill in Ohio,
The question was how much land. So let me state my answer to that first: "I have no idea"

Now that I got that out of the way. I would like to expand on Bill's statement about "the effect that you potentially have on the folks in your neighborhood"

I agree that a person should consider how their lifestyle will impact the folks around them. I am careful to check the local market prices before I set my prices for lamb, poultry, pork and hay. While I would like to make some money farming, I don't "need" to since I have a other income. Farming keeps my property taxes down, that's where the real money is at for us. I try not to under cut the farmers near me because some days I need their help.

So just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[MullersLaneFarm]

"Ten acres enough" is another good book (available through small farmers journal)

We do use draft horses to mow & rake (if weather allows) . Still need the tractor to bale. Paul uses the horses as much as possible, but he is the first to say, "Do you know why tractors replaced horses?? Because they're better."

If you are unfamiliar with working with horses & farm equipment, you have a lot to learn. I suggest buying an old farm team (hard to find and worth their weight in gold) that will teach YOU. horse drawn equipment usually ends up as lawn ornaments. you'll need knowledge to fix them.

Farming with horses is slower work. Unlike tractors, you need to feed, water & maintain them every single day. With a tractor, you simply put it in the machine shed until the next time you need it.

We have 11 acres, 5 in alfalfa hayfield, 5 in pastures & we rent out another 2 acres of pasture. We have 2 drafts, 1 small mule, a milk cow, beef steer, 2 goats, over 100 various poultry & hogs. We still have to buy hay and corn to get us through the winter.

We love working with our horses, but we're glad the tractor is handy when we need to get the hay in quickly

[retiredbop]

Bill & FreeRanger, rein yourselves in there boys. I NEVER said anything about going commercial. I want to feed my family, not the world.

mama, I'll be amazoning those titles. Thank you.

Eddie, see, there I go proving the DNG thing again. It honestly never dawned on me to talk to local farmers. Heck, I might even find my farm that way.

edcopp, 23 years in maximum security lock-ups. Yep, too long. 50 acres, $100-$200k, and no return on the investment sounds ok to me. Now, about that 100 hours a week thing......

Daisy, subscribed to SFJ online yesterday. Considering Rural Heritage too. Thanks for the compliment.

Some folks would say I have two character flaws. (Actually more than two, but these are the ones that apply here.) First, I'm a perfectionist. My Dad taught me that anything worth doing is worth doing right. Dad also taught me doing it right the FIRST time was more efficient. (And after you "re-do" a couple of lazy jobs a few times to satisfy him you learned the point.) Second, I am the consummate planner. I plan everything. Heck, I've been planning my retirement at age 50 since I was 14 years old.

Right now the farm is in the planning stages. I'm at least 3-5 years out. So I've got time to query the group, local farmers, and re-think erroneous beliefs. Bear with me. My questions will begin to make more sense eventually. While I grew up on a small farm, with a dozen milking goats; I was a young teen, and not concerned with the workings and plannings. Oh how I wish wisdom were gifted to youth. I could be sitting on a nice 80 acre farm in the Mohawk Valley of NY right now. Funny, I couldn't wait to run away from there as fast as I could, and now all I dream about is recreating it.

[EasyDay]

I just can't agree with edcopp's estimate of 100 hrs/week.

The best thing about starting from scratch is proper planning.
If any homesteader has to work 100/wk every week, there was poor planning involved.

Always take the time necessary at the beginning to go that one extra step to make things easier on yourself later. If you find something is taking too much time, or is just too hard, fix it. You'll appreciate the extra effort you took every time you have to do that chore in the future.

You probably will have some weeks that you work way longer than your body wants to, but it shouldn't be every week. For example, while the fields are growing, they don't require your labor. That's the time you use to knock out your other tasks so that, come mowing, raking, baling, whatever time, you won't be overburdened and can focus on getting the fields cleared.

[EDDIE BUCK]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

Bill & FreeRanger, rein yourselves in there boys. I NEVER said anything about going commercial. I want to feed my family, not the world.

mama, I'll be amazoning those titles. Thank you.

Eddie, see, there I go proving the DNG thing again. It honestly never dawned on me to talk to local farmers. Heck, I might even find my farm that way.

edcopp, 23 years in maximum security lock-ups. Yep, too long. 50 acres, $100-$200k, and no return on the investment sounds ok to me. Now, about that 100 hours a week thing......

Daisy, subscribed to SFJ online yesterday. Considering Rural Heritage too. Thanks for the compliment.

Some folks would say I have two character flaws. (Actually more than two, but these are the ones that apply here.) First, I'm a perfectionist. My Dad taught me that anything worth doing is worth doing right. Dad also taught me doing it right the FIRST time was more efficient. (And after you "re-do" a couple of lazy jobs a few times to satisfy him you learned the point.) Second, I am the consummate planner. I plan everything. Heck, I've been planning my retirement at age 50 since I was 14 years old.

Right now the farm is in the planning stages. I'm at least 3-5 years out. So I've got time to query the group, local farmers, and re-think erroneous beliefs. Bear with me. My questions will begin to make more sense eventually. While I grew up on a small farm, with a dozen milking goats; I was a young teen, and not concerned with the workings and plannings. Oh how I wish wisdom were gifted to youth. I could be sitting on a nice 80 acre farm in the Mohawk Valley of NY right now. Funny, I couldn't wait to run away from there as fast as I could, and now all I dream about is recreating it.

No, you are not dumb, ignorant perhaps, me to about many things. Looking for a farm to buy is alot like living on a farm. Either one you should watch where you'er stepping.And you are doing that by asking about what you dont know. Country folks will be glad to help you about whatever you need to know,just ask, and please dont ever give them the slightest hint that you know more than them, or your info source is closed. Hope everything works out good for you, when problems arise ask, all the info you'll need is just down the road or right here at your finger tips.

[bachelorb]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

I'm looking at a horse(s) as a means to make the farm as self-sufficient and oil-free as possible. I was reading somewhere (probably Rural Heritage's website) about a rotation of something like oats, hay, and pasture; so that's what the horse has to do. Plow, harvest, mow, rake, transport. Also drag some lumber now and then. So I need to plant enough oats and mow enough hay to feed 1 or 2 horses, a dozen or so goats, a dozen or so Babydoll sheep (if DW enjoys her carding and spinning classes), 1 or 2 dozen chickens, and maybe 2-6 miniature cattle from harvest to harvest.

Chickens for eggs and meat, goats for milk and meat, sheep possibly for wool and meat, and maybe even some small cows for beef. We'll be doing lots of gardening to produce most of our own veggies and potatoes. (Hey, what kind of Irishman would I be without my potatoes?)

Hey Mike,

Your plan sounds good on the outside. First you have to decide what you want to do, and what you want to have done. The farm will never pay for itself if you decide to do it all yourself just in equipment costs. For example, the oats need to be combined and the hay needs to be baled, both can be done custom for you, but you'll need to be sure there is someone around who can do it. your feed will need to be mixed, but do you buy the mixer or is that done at a feed mill.

These were all things I had to look at. I raise corn and hay for my cattle and goats. I decided to buy feed for the meat birds and feed the laying hens scraps etc....

I thought about raising another grain besides corn, but the combine costs are expensive plus right now with fixing my old raggely corn (picker) and hay equipment all the time, I don't know if I'd have time to do it and I use a tractor for all the plowing and cultivating... I'll tell ya, I'll bet horsefarming that kind of acerage will put you at 100 hrs a week.

Now, I'm not trying to discourage you or anything, I guess my advice would be to start small and then move up. Most of the animals you mention eat hay, so why not just raise a hay crop the first year. Mow it and either get it customed baled or put it up loose. 30 acres of hay will keep you busy for a while.

Good Luck,
Brad

[retiredbop]

This is going to sound crazy to a bunch of you, but the baling and haying are one of the things I really miss. We kids would hire out as "migrant workers" during haying season in our part of NY. Actually, we only migrated as far as our bicycles could take us. $10 a day, plus all we could eat and drink. There were six farms that we worked on and they all rotated their cuttings and balings so we worked pretty much every day for weeks at a time. So if I finally decide to do this I can virtually guarantee I do the haying myself. And that means traditional bales, not those gigundai things I see out there today. I know they mean less work, but I think they take away more satisfaction than they return. There is a real sense of satisfaction in a 500 bale day.

That, and snuggling in with your head resting on a nice soft doe, eyes closed, and just listening to the rythym of the milk in bucket.

[ellebeaux]

I think a lot of us get stuck on the idea of being 'self-sufficient' and forget the idea of 'building community'. I'd suggest that you do as much as you can on your own but look for a home where you can get all your needs met. So maybe you don't have cows but trade chicken or veggies or hay for beef and milk with someone down the road.

I'm not a perfectionist but I love planning! When I first started posting on this board, one of the great things I learned was to start doing homesteading stuff NOW in my current situation. So learn to make soap, grow a garden, live a week without electricity, figure out how the stoopid Alladdin lamps work (still working on that one), get a couple chickens, make rag rugs. I guess you've already started this if your wife is taking spinning classes. All stuff that makes me feel accomplished and will serve me well in my imaginary farmstead.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing more of your postings!

Beaux

[HilltopDaisy]

Originally Posted by retiredbop

This is going to sound crazy to a bunch of you, but the baling and haying are one of the things I really miss. We kids would hire out as "migrant workers" during haying season in our part of NY. Actually, we only migrated as far as our bicycles could take us. $10 a day, plus all we could eat and drink. There were six farms that we worked on and they all rotated their cuttings and balings so we worked pretty much every day for weeks at a time. So if I finally decide to do this I can virtually guarantee I do the haying myself. And that means traditional bales, not those gigundai things I see out there today. I know they mean less work, but I think they take away more satisfaction than they return. There is a real sense of satisfaction in a 500 bale day.

That, and snuggling in with your head resting on a nice soft doe, eyes closed, and just listening to the rythym of the milk in bucket.

Just wanted to say that I can relate. Working with small bales just about kills me (age 49, 90 degrees-never fails). Wouldn't have it any other way. Yep, sounds crazy, but I can relate.