Compare / Contrast: Organic -vs- Sustainable

[Nel frattempo]

I understand "organics" but what exactly is "sustainable" and can one be "sustainable" and not be "organic"? This has come to the fore in that we are in process of becoming more "sustainable" here on our small farm, however, we are not fully "organic." We try, but to be honest, we do still use some chemicals. In conversation last week, a "town woman" (upon hearing me say to another person - while engaged in discussion about a Farmers' Market Stand - that we still do use Roundup on the roadway near one garden - but not in the garden) became enraged (she was in rage - not me) and said that no one who uses Roundup or any other chemical is "sustainable." So....? Am I on the road to "sustainable" or not.......just because of Roundup??

[minnikin1]

Not.
Sorry. I think I would define it the way that woman did.

[ladycat]

Sustainable agriculture is a way of raising food that is healthy for consumers and animals, does not harm the environment, is humane for workers, respects animals, provides a fair wage to the farmer, and supports and enhances rural communities.

Here are some good links about sustainable farming and definitions.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/afsic/pubs/agnic/susag.shtml
http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_agriculture
http://www.sustainabletable.org/intro/whatis/
http://www.ncat.org/agri.html

[tinknal]

"Organic" is political, "sustainable" is sensible.


Tell the old biddy to go pound sand.

[ladycat]

Originally Posted by tinknal

"Organic" is political, "sustainable" is sensible.

You are so right. There is a lot of stuff in the grocery store labbeled organic that I don't trust. Organic has lost it's meaning since the gubmint got involved.

[chamoisee]

I would not buy from a person who used Round-Up, and I would not consider it sustainable. My understanding of sustainable is that it isn't always that feasible to get the certified organic label. When you're advertising your product as "sustainable", your customers are relying on trust when they buy your product. The woman got mad because she has purchased yoru product, believing it to be essentially organic (although you couldn't advertise it as such without getting certified), she probably paid more for it than she would for other chemically contaminated produce, and she feels like she was deceived and ripped off.

Also, it devalues everyone else's produce which is being advertised as "sustainable", because now it will seem like anything goes.

My suggestion is that you start using mulch (even cardboard and straw or old hay over it will work) and discontinue the Round-Up.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

I would not buy from a person who used Round-Up, and I would not consider it sustainable. My understanding of sustainable is that it isn't always that feasible to get the certified organic label. When you're advertising your product as "sustainable", your customers are relying on trust when they buy your product. The woman got mad because she has purchased yoru product, believing it to be essentially organic (although you couldn't advertise it as such without getting certified), she probably paid more for it than she would for other chemically contaminated produce, and she feels like she was deceived and ripped off.

Also, it devalues everyone else's produce which is being advertised as "sustainable", because now it will seem like anything goes.

My suggestion is that you start using mulch (even cardboard and straw or old hay over it will work) and discontinue the Round-Up.

The fact that someone uses roundup in their ditch has absolutly NO relation to their produce. Any producer can use any chemical on areas other than that which they use for their product and still be organic. Please use your head when you make statements like this.

[Don]

Originally Posted by ladycat

You are so right. There is a lot of stuff in the grocery store labbeled organic that I don't trust. Organic has lost it's meaning since the gubmint got involved.

AMEN Ladycat! The only authentic word for the way food was created and intended to be grown by God is ... NATURAL ... no quote marks necessary!

I think weeds only came about because mankind made the choice to leave the truest natural and sustainable Garden when they disobeyed and ate the ONE thing they weren't supposed to. As a result, we are given to toil for our food...and that includes ridding areas of weeds!

I suppose you could find someone with geese and/or goats...pen them up in specific areas and they'll take care of the weeds for you! Then till in the resulting fertilizer and plant flowers!

Don

[anniew]

The word organic has a legal meaning. Sustainable and natural do not. However, as someone who grows according to the organic theories, but who is not certified, I use both sustainable and natural (how natural is it anyway to grow things in rows!), but expect my customers to ask me exactly what that means to me or else I will tell them.
Perhaps if you are selling, you could define those words to your customers when you sell or have a sign explaining your growing practices.
As one poster said, if you are using round-up on a roadway that is not immediately adjacent to your garden (so that spray drift doesn't get into it), you could still claim that you are growing without sprays. Some farms have parts that are certified organic and other parts that are conventional.
So don't get all upset about the woman who went ballistic. But, make sure your customers understand the terms by your definitions so there are no misunderstandings.
Ann

[chamoisee]

Originally Posted by tinknal

The fact that someone uses roundup in their ditch has absolutly NO relation to their produce. Any producer can use any chemical on areas other than that which they use for their product and still be organic. Please use your head when you make statements like this.

My head says that people often say one thing and do another. Chances are extremely good that if they have Roundup and use it for one thing, they might for another. If you trust the person enough, you can go for it anyway....but considering the higher price...I would just skip it and buy from someone I knew did not ever use chemicals.

It's the same with CAE in goats. When a breeder has both positive and negative animals and the positive ones are quarantined, you're relying very heavily on trust if you buy stock from them.

My experience in real life has been that people very often are not honest, or they tell an awful lot of white lies. Therefore, if someone told me, "Well, we do use Roundup, but only in the ditch" and "Of course, there's a garden right next to it, but the round up never gets blown onto it, and we would never, ever use it on food crops", my reaction is going to be that I'll say "yeah, right...." and walk off.

Of course, she could just tell people that she never uses chemicals at all...

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

My head says that people often say one thing and do another. Chances are extremely good that if they have Roundup and use it for one thing, they might for another. If you trust the person enough, you can go for it anyway....but considering the higher price...I would just skip it and buy from someone I knew did not ever use chemicals.

It's the same with CAE in goats. When a breeder has both positive and negative animals and the positive ones are quarantined, you're relying very heavily on trust if you buy stock from them.

My experience in real life has been that people very often are not honest, or they tell an awful lot of white lies. Therefore, if someone told me, "Well, we do use Roundup, but only in the ditch" and "Of course, there's a garden right next to it, but the round up never gets blown onto it, and we would never, ever use it on food crops", my reaction is going to be that I'll say "yeah, right...." and walk off.

Of course, she could just tell people that she never uses chemicals at all...

A dishonest person would not admit to using roundup in the first place.

[chamoisee]

It's sort of like how I wouldn't let a drug user watch my kids even if he/she claimed that they only did them at night or when they were alone.

I have seen people who use chemicals around their place do stuff that baffles my mind. I don't care if the farm is certified organic- if I found that they were using herbicides along the driveway, they have lost my business. They're a fence sitter.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

It's sort of like how I wouldn't let a drug user watch my kids even if he/she claimed that they only did them at night or when they were alone.

I have seen people who use chemicals around their place do stuff that baffles my mind. I don't care if the farm is certified organic- if I found that they were using herbicides along the driveway, they have lost my business. They're a fence sitter.

Bully for you. Still doesn't change facts.

[ET1 SS]

We sell produce at a farmer's market, and are well on our way to being certified 'organic'.

Completely following the organic requirements, there are still a long list of things that can be sprayed on your land and your crops.

Organic certification only says that the seed is not GMO [nor hybrid], and that you did not use forbidden chemicals.

[chamoisee]

Putting it another way, I have a good friend who is an inspector for the Idaho dept of Agriculture. One of her jobs is to go around and ensure that the certified organic farms are sticking by the rules and to try to bust them if they're not. She routinely talks about farms that need to be busted because they are not playing by the rules, they're just trying to make the extra buck.

If you can't necessarily trust a farm that has gone to the expense and effort of getting their certification, then farms that are not organic but are trying to tap into the market without paying the fee and following the rules become even more suspect.

I've actually had people tell me that "Miracle Gro" is organic because all it's components are found in nature.

[Cabin Fever]

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by Cabin Fever

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

Well said, that is exactly how I have heard the phrase used.

'sustainable' you can produce such a crop and continue producing such a crop, year after year without adding anything onto your property, and in such a way that your property will never become infertile.

One workshop that we attended last year, very strongly made the argument that by hauling manure onto your farm is not a sustainable practice.

But neither is leeching all the nutrients from your soil.

[ladycat]

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

One workshop that we attended last year, very strongly made the argument that by hauling manure onto your farm is not a sustainable practice.

That may be the accepted definition, but I see it as more of a community thing.

Look how much manure is getting dumped into waterways and lagoons. Is it not more in the spirit of sustainability to make use of that manure and let small farms haul it home and use it? Sustainability (IMO) makes the best use of resources, even when that includes bringing products onto the farm from outside sources when said products would otherwise go to waste.

[Forerunner]

Originally Posted by Cabin Fever

Organic and sustainable are two unrelated concepts. A grower can be totally "organic" and, at the same time, not be sustainable and visa versa.

In my way of thinking, 'sustainable' means that a farm or garden can "stand alone" without any outside inputs. To put it another way, a "susatainble grower does not purchase or import any fertilizers, nutrients or organic matter from outside sources. In other words, how can a grower be "sustainable" if he or she relies on outside sources of fertilzer imports? It makes no difference if the grower is "organic" or not. If you purchase outside inputs, you are not "sustainable."

I agree with the above......but is that enough ?
Would not sustainable mean no fossil fuels, no technology that cannot be produced at home, no annual seed or plant purchases, etc....?
Sustainable means sustainable... without conditions, exceptions, or dependencies upon the participation, performance or input of ANY outside source.
How much longer do we really have before this is no longer optional ?

[RedHogs]

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/concept.htm

This website clearly states the goals and key issues of sutainable agriculture and addresses the round-up question in the 10th paragraph of the plant production guidelines. I am commited to sustainable practices and agree with the principles laid out and appreciate the ability to address any farm situation from a profit - loss stand point. SA tries to encourage stewardship while understanding the importance of profit. I see SA as a mindset of farm stewardship not a idealogical stance with you-all be darned if you don't agree. I have adapted multi-species forages for nitrogen fertilizer reduction, I now only use conservation tillage or no-till practices into warm season stubble. I feel I am a sustainable farmer as described in this website, I do use round - up, I buy it 10 gallons at a time. I use electric fencing to use forage based pasturing and rotational grazing for reduced fertilizer input and soil erosion - and practice seasonal stocking rates. The round-up is necessary for the cross fencing to be practical. The practical is the key word. The SA stance is a practical step or method for stewardship of the land. I advertise SA methods for both livestock and cropping and feel no need to apologize for some necessary compromises.