Coyote took a lamb

[Maura]

I found our solo lamb dead this morning. Something had been eating it. When my husband came home from work this evening he did online research and determined that it was a coyote. I wonder, though, if it could have been a dog, would a dog or coydog attack and eat in the same way?

Our electric fence is three feet high, which I'm sure a coyote could get over.

Last night my dog was going nuts, so I let him out. I suspect he may have run the predator off. My two minidonkeys were on the other side of the house, but I've put them back in with the sheep.

Will a coyote come back the next night, or will it wait a couple days? Is there a specific time of night that it will be back, at which time my dog and I can be outside. I'll call DNR in the morning as this needs to be reported. The lamb will stay in the pasture since it is still cool out. My reasons are twofold. First, the mama ewe will be very upset if I take the lamb away this soon. Second, if it comes back, maybe it will go back to the lamb instead of one of the sheep.

The only problems we've had with predators have been raccoons and fox, which are no longer a problem. I'm concerned that without foxes, the coyotes are moving in.

[bumpus]

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They will be back and kill more unless you kill them first.

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[MullersLaneFarm]

Maura,
I'm so sorry to read this. Yes, the coyote will be back. Could be back tonight, could wait a few days. They are very intelligent critters and learn easily from past events.

The can easily jump over a 4' fence and will find any small breech in your fencing. When you contact the DNR ask if there is a nuisance trapper around. Some do it for $$, some won't charge.

[Bearfootfarm]

It would be hard to tell the difference in a dog attack vs a coyote, but either one will probably return.

Maybe its time for a LGD?
http://www.lgd.org/

[fantasymaker]

Sounds like dogs to me.
LOL everything sounds like dogs to me! Cyotes just dont seem to kill much but they will find and eat anything dead

[Country Gent]

Sorry to hear about the lamb, I think the donkeys will keep the rest away.I would dispose of the lamb as soon as you can, it might bring more dangerous things like bear, and they eat donkeys too.I saw one knock down saplings once as it was running away that would stop a small car.You might have to get pro-active and kill some of the yotes, they will hang around as long as it is good food source.C.G.

[Maura]

The DNR man came out today and took the lamb. He wasn't sure it was a coyote because it didn't take the lamb with it. I pointed out that while a coyote could jump over my electric fence, he might have trouble bringing a lamb through it. On the other hand, when my dog was going ballistic in the house, I let him out, and that might have scared the critter away. The other thing he mentioned was that the coyote should have come back last night to feed on the lamb. But, the dog and I came out at 1 am, 2 am, and 3 am last night. I also put the donkeys back in with the sheep. They are only about 450 pounds each, but they will attack.

The DNR guy is going to get back to me with a nuisance trapper's number. He took the lamb and will check out the wound as well as skin it so it can be determined if it was a coyote or dog by the marks left on the throat. There were no visible marks on the throat, but the lamb has a nice wool coat.

My neighbor down the road raises calves to butcher. They should be buying calves pretty soon, so as soon as I know if it was a dog or coyote I'll be paying them a visit. My husband wants to get a 22 or something like that. He was in the army for six years so I'm hoping he knows how to use it. We'll also visit a sporting goods store and get a good portable battery operated floodlight, the one we have is useless.

You know, we have four ducks that park themselves near the house every night, no protection. I guess lamb is tastier.

[Jim S.]

LOL! So many misconceptions in one thread. DNR man? Well...

Coyotes do not take their dead, they gorge and regurgitate for pups. Or simply gorge for themselves. They will come back to a carcass; they do not take them. They do not attempt to cover or hide them.

Cats take them, if it is a small enough lamb or kid, or attempt to cover or hide them if they are too big. With a cat kill, you often find hay or grass tossed over the carcass, at a minimum, if it remains. It can't be done well in pasture, but they DO try to hide it.

HOW was the carcass eaten that is called a coyote kill? Coyotes eat from front to back; cats from back to front. Both eat innerds and entrails first, then the muscle meat. Cats tend to have smooth-edged opening; coyotes rip and tear.

Dog kills are NOT like either coyote or cat. A domestic feral dog will kill and dismember. The carcass will usually be missing easy stuff, like legs and such, if enough time was allowed. Domestic pet dogs running loose usually do not eat much at all, but will try the muscle meat in various areas if they touch anything. You'll see small areas where they have "nibbled." They kill more for fun than need. Dogs tend not to eat the innerds first, whereas truly wild animals like coyotes and cats know that's where the bounty of energy is at.

Did you examine the top of the carcass, along the back at the base of the neck on either side of the backbone? There, you need to massage and move the skin around. You are looking for places where the skin will part. Those are claw marks, and they are the sign a cat (bobcat, etc.) has killed the prey. Cats chase the prey, then leap onto the back, using the claws to hold themselves there, then they bite the base of the neck. The incisors go through the backbone and kill by crushing/destroying the spinal cord. Unless you move the skin all around to check for the claw marks, you will never know they are there. It is often impossible to find the spot where they bit the neck. I have never found prey with broken legs in a cat kill.

Coyotes generally kill by coming up alongside the running animal and ripping out the windpipe from underneath, or injuring the animal to slow it, then ripping out the windpipe.

Dogs most often kill by breaking legs, then ripping out the windpipe.

The hole will be at the base of the windpipe, usually, in either case. Easy to see.

I have not seen your kill, and your description leaves out a lot of detail. But just going by what is here, I HIGHLY DOUBT that it was a coyote or dog.

[MullersLaneFarm]

Originally Posted by fantasymaker

! Cyotes just dont seem to kill much but they will find and eat anything dead

Come tell that to the 'yotes that wiped out over 75 or our birds last spring. Oh, they kill.

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by MullersLaneFarm

Come tell that to the 'yotes that wiped out over 75 or our birds last spring. Oh, they kill.

Yep, they will kill if it is easy pickings. But they prefer to scavenge or go after small rodents than to go after kids, lambs or calves. It is also unusual to see coyote kills where there is a lot of killing just for the sake of killing. Most coyotes kill for food, not sport. Dogs do that all the time, though. They will kill everything if they have enough time.

What gets me hot under the collar is when people jump to conclusions that it was a coyote without having the facts to prove it. That happens all the time around where I live. Then they go out gunning for coyotes, or set out a powerful poison in rotten meat that kills all manner and kind of innocent animals, and the bobcats really doing the killing go their merry way.

The other thing is, it is a danged sight harder to hunt and kill a bobcat than a coyote. Which may also be why people blame the coyote first and foremost. Easier to get retribution, even if it is misplaced. I have found that even experienced hunters and woodsmen can be stupendously ignorant of the ways of these animals, since fewer and fewer study the natural habits of animals anymore but rather just hunt for weekend sport.

The most livestock losses I have had in 17 years of goats have been from domestic dogs. I kill any domestic dog I see on the place now, and bury it on the spot. Next highest is bobcats. I have never lost a single goat to coyotes, yet they are all around here.

In the case of electric fence, it is far more likely a bobcat got in than that a coyote hopped it. Cats nearly always kill alone, the exception being when they are training cubs to hunt and kill, and they can get through the smallest of gaps. I had a bobcat get in once through a missing board in a barn pen, then go to the pasture to kill goats. I reconstructed events after finding the carcasses.

It is very important to be super-observant of everything before moving the carcass, and to try to deduce what happened and what did it before you go off half-cocked on a coyote hunt that's not going to do you any good but will result in needless death.

[bill not in oh]

Yeah, I've lived in rural areas of Ohio, New Mexico and South Texas - yotes in all those areas are very efficient predators rather than scavengers. Not that they wouldn't have at some road kill .... And coyotes will carry/drag a small carcass off to their den. In this case I'll bet whatever killed the lamb hauled butt when the dog was turned loose. Whatever it was, if it comes back, my money's on the donkeys....

Maura - sorry about the lamb... I AM curious as to why you have a 3 foot electric fence. That fourth foot adds quite a bit of extra security. My Pyrenees could clear a four foot fence (he just doesn't know it... yet), but he'd have to be REAL motivated. If I'd had 3' fencing, I'd probably been spending half my time chasing him or wondering where he was.

[Jim S.]

Bill, my point is that we don't know a coyote did this one. Like I said, the description is sketchy, but I'd say it wasn't.

Oh yeah, my "bonafides," if we're listing them...rural Illinois (3 spots), rural NM, rural Alabama, rural Virginia, rural Tennessee. People in all those places jumped to the same conclusions, too. LOL.

[bill not in oh]

That's why I said 'whatever it was' (twice). I agree with you that there's insufficient information to determine what it was. I was simply stating that my experience with yotes is that they will kill in a heartbeat given the opportunity and reason.

And my $$$ is still on the donks...

[jen74145]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

Dog kills are NOT like either coyote or cat. A domestic feral dog will kill and dismember. The carcass will usually be missing easy stuff, like legs and such, if enough time was allowed. Domestic pet dogs running loose usually do not eat much at all, but will try the muscle meat in various areas if they touch anything. You'll see small areas where they have "nibbled." They kill more for fun than need. Dogs tend not to eat the innerds first, whereas truly wild animals like coyotes and cats know that's where the bounty of energy is at.

Need to respectfully disagree here; whn my own dogs went on a killing spree of my birds, they ate the innards first, starting at the rump of the bird. Even killed one, ate the innards, and killed another, leaving the gutted corpse of the first duck intact. Maybe one way is more common than another, but just wanted to say, they can surprise you.

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

More than likely a wild dog would have fought with your dog over the carcass when you let him out. Wild dogs are fearless and will even attack humans. I feel you have a coyote.

Here is a link with good info for you:

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for37/for37.htm

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for37/for37.pdf


RF

[Terri]

A bit of trivia, here.

My old sheep teacher said that coyotes have personal preferances: some like live meat and some prefer to scavenge.

He swore by "lead poisening" as if you could see a coyote in the area of your flock, it was more likely to be the one that was killing the sheep. The coyotes that are scavengers are less likely to be seen, as they are much shyer.

[Ross]

Coyotes use various methods to kill but center on grabbing the throat. They will suffocate a lamb or bite into the throat to bleed it to death. Dogs typically bite at a lamb as the chase it, so chunks wil be missing from the legs stomach or shoulder and they may or may not finish off the lamb by biting the throat. What they eat is a matter of preference, I only rarely see the guts eaten, although they will disembowel the carcass. We know its coyotes, we've picked them off as the eat. Lead and traps are the only real control methods. You will also see different attack methods when a dam is teaching the pups to hunt, they start to look more like dog attacks. We've stitched up the walking wounded, and they will typically include a stomach tear and throat bruising.

[texican]

Keep your dogs and donkey penned tonight, as well as the sheep if possible. Go out with spotlight and .22 or whatever. Sit out in the dark for thirty minutes on top of the kill site. Make kissy squeaky noises on the back of your hand. The louder and wierder the better. Do this off and on, and when you hear the coyote coming up, turn on spotlight and shoot.

I've called em up to ten feet away from me. Between my chicken pen and house.

If you 'want' em to come back, leave the carcass... that'll guarantee they come back. I'd take it several miles away, or bury it, and place a large stone on top. Carrying it off is probably better, that way the 'yotes will head off in that direction for an 'easy meal'... and might leave you alone for a few nights.

good luck

[Maura]

The reason we thought it may be coyote is twofold. One, there are coyotes in this area of the state. The DNR released coyotes a few years ago to control the deer population. I guess nobody told them how big our deer get, and that coyotes don't usually hunt in a pack. There is a large tract of DNR land near us, which perhaps is why we haven't been bothered by coyotes. If they can find enough to eat in the great woods, they aren't going to move into areas of human habitation. Further south, where there aren't such large tracts of woods, coyotes are a problem if one doesn't have LGDs or donkeys. They take lambs and kids.

The second reason is the feeding off the flank. Apparently, coyotes grab the throat and suffecate the victim (I guess because they are too heavy to shake and break the neck), then begin to eat on a flank. No obvious injury to the throat, but with the curly wool, it may not be obvious even if it is there. I don't think he was run down, like dogs do, because his little body was in the area he would have been sleeping in. The sheep are sleeping on the septic field where it is dry, rather than in the pasture where it is still wet, and this is where his body was found.

I don't suspect a dog because loose dogs are frowned upon around here. I have one neighbor, about 3/4 mile down the road that was letting his five dogs loose during the day. One mastiff and several smaller dogs. They always stayed around the house or within the village. The dogs are no longer loose, and I think they got rid of most of them. As for a three foot high fence keeping dogs out, I have seen dogs come up to the fence. They put their nose on the wire and that's training enough. Sure, a lot of dogs could clear it, but they don't know that.

I think the donkeys are keeping whatever it was away. They are both for sale, so whoever has a taste for lamb is going to have to go also.

[pancho]

Originally Posted by Maura

The reason we thought it may be coyote is twofold. One, there are coyotes in this area of the state. The DNR released coyotes a few years ago to control the deer population. I guess nobody told them how big our deer get, and that coyotes don't usually hunt in a pack. There is a large tract of DNR land near us, which perhaps is why we haven't been bothered by coyotes. If they can find enough to eat in the great woods, they aren't going to move into areas of human habitation. Further south, where there aren't such large tracts of woods, coyotes are a problem if one doesn't have LGDs or donkeys. They take lambs and kids.

The second reason is the feeding off the flank. Apparently, coyotes grab the throat and suffecate the victim (I guess because they are too heavy to shake and break the neck), then begin to eat on a flank. No obvious injury to the throat, but with the curly wool, it may not be obvious even if it is there. I don't think he was run down, like dogs do, because his little body was in the area he would have been sleeping in. The sheep are sleeping on the septic field where it is dry, rather than in the pasture where it is still wet, and this is where his body was found.

I don't suspect a dog because loose dogs are frowned upon around here. I have one neighbor, about 3/4 mile down the road that was letting his five dogs loose during the day. One mastiff and several smaller dogs. They always stayed around the house or within the village. The dogs are no longer loose, and I think they got rid of most of them. As for a three foot high fence keeping dogs out, I have seen dogs come up to the fence. They put their nose on the wire and that's training enough. Sure, a lot of dogs could clear it, but they don't know that.

I think the donkeys are keeping whatever it was away. They are both for sale, so whoever has a taste for lamb is going to have to go also.

The DNR has never, to my knowledge and my research, released coyotes to control any animal. They have tried unsuccessfully to get rid of the coyote in every state where coyotes were located. The most common way to control deer herds is to increase the number hunters are allowed to kill each season.

Coyotes will act much the same as a dog when they come up to an electric fence. If you have a dog proof fence you have a coyote proof fence. If it won't keep out the coyotes it won't keep out the neighbor's dog.