Working dog

[mamabear]

Has anyone on here ever bought a working cattle dog? If so, I'll have more questions.
Thank you.
mamabear

[pancho]

Sure, what type of working dog are you wanting to buy?
Do you want a proven working dog, a grown dog, or a pup out of working stock?

[mamabear]

Hi Pancho,
We are looking at getting a working dog that is already trained, since we have no idea how to do it ourselves. The dog would be used for our cows and possibly later, pigs and goats.
Thank you.
mamabear

[pancho]

Is it going to be used for herding, protection, or catching?

[mamabear]

Thank you, Wind in Her Hair, for the comments.
Our cattle are not just crazy wild. They will come up during the winter for feed and when they are curious about what we are doing. However, we can't just pet them.
We are thinking about a dog or dogs to help round them up when we need to pen them for medicating or separating certain ones out.
We had a catahoula, but she was too aggressive for the cattle. Great guard dog, but didn't get along with the cattle.
Thanks for the input.
mamabear

[pancho]

If you do not have a large number of cattle or expect to be working them a lot a dog may not be needed. Tame cattle can be worked by humans very easy. The cost of a trained cattle dog plus the upkeep and vet bills for a year could be used to buy another cow.
A well trained cattle dog can be very costly and a poorly trained one can be very costly in different ways. If you are inexperienced in the use of a trained cattle dog you may not be able to use it as it should be and not get your moneys worth.

[Sand Flat Bob]

You can work cattle without the help of dogs. You just have to learn how cattle think and react to different situations. When I was in High School, back in the stone age, my family, my Dad and his two brothers and myself worked about 500 head of cow/calf operation without the help of dogs, horses and of course ATV's weren't invented. Dogs make it easier, but not required.

Bob

[haypoint]

It is a bit of a waste to have a working dog and only a couple hours (or less) of herding work each day. With the level of energy that some herding breeds have, you won't be happy and neither will he. Training a herding breed isn't so difficult for a small herd as yours. Figure out a call for a clockwise circle around the herd, like "Away to me" and one for counter clockwise, "Come by". When your dog is opposite you, tell himto stay. crouch down, he may get the drift. Do this 3-4 times a day and within a week, he'll do just fine. Then expect to spend nearly every waking hour tossing the tennis ball and Frisbee to keep him entertained. Not good on a chain and likely to use idle time herding everything in sight, ducks, geese, cows(endlessly when you aren't around), your small children, the neighbor's small children, snow, and just about anything else that moves or there are two of.
I took a class taught by some guy that moves cattle for a living on a huge ranch in Texas. Briefly, stay low and walk slowly towards the herd. As soon as one moves a step to the left of you, turn and walk to the right, away from the herd. Then walk away from them, so you've walked a triangle. Aproach again and as soon as one cow moves left, turn and walk in the oppasite direction they move. Keep repeating this process. Gradually, slower than a man's walk, the herd will browse along to the left. Once they are moving slowly, wait a bit and repeat. If they get excited, squat down, you'll be less of a threat to them. If you want them to get all riled up, wave your arms and yell. As long as cows don't see you as a threat, too close, too big or no where to go, they'll mosey to where you want them to go. For the learning impared,I'll mention that it works for going right, just have to circle counter-clockwise.
'course you can go the old standby method, just round up 6 or 8 guys from the Happy Hour Bar and Grill, offer them a six-pack each and have at it. Just make sure you have the video camera on and plenty of stitching thread available and something for the cows, too.

[Sunraven]

Haypoint, you've got your directional commands backwards... Come bye is clock ways, away is counter.

Anyway, Mamabear, if you plan on buying a dog that's already trained expect to pay a lot for them. Depending on what breed and how well trained the dog is (ranch dog or open trial dog, lots of possibilities here for what kind of training) expect to pay two thousand and up. There are a lot of different breeds of dog that you might choose depending on what you need done. If you aren't going to have a lot of work for your dog and want a good all around family farm dog I would recommend an Aussie.

Catahoulas are not true herding dogs, they're hounds, they're bred to hunt and bay up tough cattle- find them then circle the cattle holding them in one spot 'till you get there to move the cattle. Usually you want at least two.

Border collies, kelpies, aussies, hangin' trees, cattlemasters, and to an extent australian cattle dogs are herding dogs, dogs that will fetch and hold stock to you. I say to an extent on the australian cattle dog because most of the modern lines have little if any instinct to fetch or head and want to heel or chase, which means the cattle run whatever direction they're facing which isn't always toward you. You want a dog that will head cattle, that will go to the backside of a herd and fetch them to you. I have Hangin' Tree Cowdogs, have a week old litter of pups right now, I really like the breed, but they're not for everyone. They are a tough dog and can be hard headed.

Do some research, there's a lot of forums out there dedicated to working dogs. A lot of them also have classifieds so you can get an idea of what's available and what kind of prices. Training a dog for simple farm chores is really very easy and you might be better off getting a pup or young dog and going this route if you don't have every day in and out work for a dog. There are a lot of training videos out there, Gary Ericsson has a great video that covers darn near everything called Training the Working Stockdog- From Pup to Finished Dog. I've got a lot of links to different sites on my webpage Sunraven.net, click on Cowdogs. A couple stand out messageboards to visit are Jody Mikles Cowdog Forum, you have to be a member to view posts, and The Working Stockdog.

Hope this Helps!
-Nicole
Sunraven.net

[TedH71]

I've had catahoulas, blackmouth curs, and blue lacys. Catahoulas/bmcs are supposed to work in a group of 3...not two. Catahoulas/bmcs are far more hard headed than blue lacys. Alot of beginners who get those breeds don't realize that lots of times, you have to teach the dogs serious commands way before you put 'em on cattle. Mamabear, I've had people ask me how to train catahoulas...my answer is it's natural but it's up to you HOW much you want the dog to push cattle. It's up to you to teach the dog to listen when it's entire focus is on the cattle. Lots of catahoula people have bb guns that they use to teach the young pups to back off on command because they become so deaf they cannot actually hear when working so intensely. Some people teach them to back off when a whip is cracked because it sounds like a gun going off. I no longer have catahoulas mainly because I moved to KS and there wasn't enough work for my catahoula and he eventually became a bored pup that was harrassing my fiancee's dogs so he went back to Texas where he hunts hogs. Yes, catahoulas/bmcs are herding dogs..they don't herd necessarily in the same way border collies, etc do. Their job is to pick on the cattle and get 'em mad enough to bunch up and let you have an easy job of riding from behind while they keep the cattle together. Yes, catahoulas can be taught to haze cattle thru chutes but it requires one on one training and catahoulas/bmcs are one of the few dog breeds that I know of will learn simply by watching another dog work and will learn the commands that way.

With that being said, I highly prefer blue lacys because they do not have the high need to be dominant over people plus don't require execssive exercise. Catahoulas/bmcs can be guilty of that..more so with catahoulas than with bmcs. I didn't have many bmcs so I can't really judge the breed but can tell you they're far more easier to housebreak than catahoulas. Lacys are and were far more easier to housebreak than the above two breeds. Lacy herding is somewhat similiar to a catahoulas' but they are capable of herding sheep/goats while catahoulas/bmc most defientely aren't!!!!!! They also can push cattle thru chutes, etc and on top of that, they come in a much smaller size and don't have the merle gene therefore you don't have to worry about their eyes or ears not being able to hear, etc. They also fetch the cattle.

The lacy website is: www.lacydog.com

Hanging Tree Cowdogs simply are a mix of catahoula/heeler/with other breeds all mixed up together. If you're looking for a high quality working Austrailian Cattle dog, I would recommend this guy. His pups are somewhat pricey but they work and have proof of working ability plus he has a video of his top dog working. www.vinita.net/buzzards/home.htm

As for myself, I'm doing research on Kelpies because I suspect blue lacy's part of their genetic make up is kelpie due to several different theories that I have.

[GRUMPY Ole Man]

mamabear
Don't forget the English Shepherd. They're the jack of all trade do what job needs to be done breed. Their adaptable and will usually work about any kind of stock they're ask to. They've been bred for years for the type work you've indicated you need a stock dog for. While you're researching these other breeds check out the English Shepherd. You can find links and breeders list on The English Shepherd Club web page.

[alpinechicken]

We have Australian Sheperds. They are amazing family and working dogs. We do not own cattle, but live next to National Forest where cattle are ranged.

We often have to drive them off. My dogs love this and respond well( with no training) They would spend all day doing this, but as we don't want them running cattle or wildlife they are trained to stop with a whistle.

I think you could train one if you take the time.

Jill

PS. My female is from a breeder in AZ

[FourDeuce]

We just happen to have an Australian shepherd that somebody dumped near us. He's a good dog, but he's really in need of a job. He's so desperate for something to do that he herds the leaves when they blow around in the backyard. When the guineas fly into the backyard he'll herd them under his shelter and keep them there without hurting them, so you can tell he's got the skills.

[Sunraven]

Ted: Hangin' Trees don't have any heeler in them. Gary Ericsson developed the breed over thirty years using mostly border collie, some catahoula, kelpie, and one aussie from his old aussie line (Hangin' Tree Black Bear). Outside crosses are no longer aloud, you can only register HTC to HTC bred pups. Also, it's a working registry, meaning before they can be registered they have to prove that they will both head and heel cattle by having them evaluated or send in a video, you can't register the pups unless the parents are registered. This ensures that the breed is a working breed and will continue to be.

Also, I went to the Buzzards Australian Cattle dog page... "200 conformation champions and 2 herding champions"? Those aren't working dogs, those are AKC show dogs. I watched the so called 'herding' video on the page as well- that dog just chases the cattle full tilt from one side of the pen to the other, never looks at nothing but trying to bite there heels, never makes a move to get ahead of the cattle and stop them. That's not herding. If they'd been out in a pasture those cattle would have run away from you and you'd have never caught them that dog behind them all the way.

[TedH71]

Sunraven,

Arlgiht. I was under the impression that HT's had some heeler in 'em. Well, I was under the impression that a cow dog is supposed to push cattle around to where you want 'em? Maybe you have more specific expectations of them. I'll go back and double-check and see what you specifically said about what you want in a cattle dog.

Ok, I'm back. I know that catahoulas are mostly head dogs so if you want heading dogs, go with catahoulas. In the old days, they used to fetch livestock that were running feral in the mountains and they would bring the hogs over to the holding pens and then jump out leaving the trapped hogs in the pen while the workers would close the pen gate and start working on the hogs. Nobody does this anymore so the more specific training for this has been forgotten. They also were asked to keep a bunch of feral hogs together for miles and to bring it right behind their owners. Again, nobody does this anymore so they have had to learn to think for theirselves. They are excellent dogs for working cattle if you're a professional roper. Calf bolts from the release gate..the dog runs besides the calf keeping the calf from running all over creation while the roper ropes the calf because after the first few ropings..they tend to become very head shy and run the opposite direction. There are some catahoulas that do this daily. Blackmouth curs have the more tendency to herd now days more so than catahoulas due to not being bred for coloring. Lacys...I've not seen lacys work cattle but have been told they are both head and heeling dogs. I fully intend to do that some day. I have some friends who do this on a daily basis with lacys.

As for Hanging Tree dogs..seems they're all mixed up so you would get mostly different results. I know for sure that there are some dogs that will want to work a specific critter and nothing else while some are generalists. You want a dog that is a generalist because you get more use out of a dog that way. Do you know of any ACDs that herd in the style you prefer?

[Starlighthill]

I can also attest to the English Shepherd as a good all around farmdog. We use ours on sheep, goats, geese and sometimes hogs. Although my dogs don't have cattle to work, we've placed pups on farms with cattle and they've done fine. Mine also do a wonderous job of keeping down the vermin and alerting us to trouble. Here is a site dedicated to the English Shepherd as a working dog.

http://www.workingenglishshepherds.com/

Starlighthill

[mamabear]

Thanks for the helpful comments. Just to clarify, I don't own the catahoula any longer, so that is not an option. I understand that we used them for hog hunting as they keep the hog headed and won't back down from the devil himself. We don't currently own a huge herd, but will be building our herd. As a kid, we "herded" our cattle on foot also, but it was on flat ground with cattle that were pets. Our cows are not pets and not used to being herded. The terrain is located in the top of the Ozarks, which means lots of hills and drop-offs. There are only two adults and one child that are doing the herding, but if DH and DS are at work or school, that leaves me herding cows and that's like trying to herd chickens.
Thanks for the info on the different breeds. I will take another look at the English Shepherd also. I think I can train my own dog, if I had a clue how to do it. The information must be out there somewhere. We're not rushing into doing anything, so I have time.
Have a great day.
mamabear

[Sunraven]

Yes, a cowdog is supposed to push cattle where you want them, but that doesn't include chasing them. I want a dog that will head and heel, I want a dog that will fetch the cattle to me. If you have a dog that only heels it'll run the cattle whichever way they're facing which often isn't the way you want. If you have a dog that only heads then all they'll be doing is stopping the cattle from going anywhere, constantly turning them back in.

As far as the HTC being all mixed up, I don't agree at all, Gary and Choc were very particular in what they were looking for in their dogs. They were very particular on what they kept and what they culled, they culled a lot. The HTC is pretty standard in build and appearance, if a person was familiar with the breed they'd easily be able to recognize a dog as a HTC. They're bred to be a tough dog to work cattle, they're not a sheepdog. I don't necessarily want a dog that's a generalist, as you put it, I want a dog that will work cattle, and that I can use on cattle that might have never been worked by a dog. A cow not familiar with a dog will often want to fight it. Generally to work sheep or other light stock you don't want a dog to bite, you want them to stay off... you can't expect to take the bite out of a dog and then also have it work cattle that might want to fight. Now on dog broke cattle you can work about any dog... however, you have to get them dog broke first.

I do know of one ACD that will head/heel and fetch, he and his owner live in eastern Ohio.

[TedH71]

Um, wouldn't chasing the cattle qualify as fetching because they would have to chase the cattle in order to herd and then fetch them? Personally I prefer head dogs over heeling dogs because then all they do is keep the cattle from scattering while you push from behind..once they get trained to the point they understand that they're supposed to keep the cattle bunched together while you ride from behind and not completely stop them. That's the misunderstanding that most people have when they've had dogs that are heeler types of dogs who can't wrap their heads around the concept that head dogs are good in their own way. Personally catahoulas/lacys/bmcs are good for that because they're one of the few cow dog breeds that can herd feral cattle...I've not met a heeler that can do that. Basically what they do is pick a fight then run then do it all over again. Sounds strange but that's the cur dog working style. 3 dogs on a herd of cattle is best. Heeling dogs are good for chute work from what I understand but a head dog can work chutes quite well if trained often enough. Just my personal preferences, that's all. Funny thing is I actually like the Australian Cattle Dogs...the look and the activity level plus the intelligence but really hard to have them live as a pet.

[Sunraven]

Chasing and fetching are two different things- chasing implies the dog is after something, in other words behind it, so the animal moves whatever direction is away from what's behind. Fetching means bringing the animal to you, now fetching can involve a lot of different things, they may head to turn to cow or heel to move her forward depending on which way they're going, I'm not particular on that as long as they're bringing the cows to me. I also like a head dog, a dog that will head will get after and turn a cow that is trying to run away.

What you're describing about working with catahoula/cur dogs is what I thought I wrote in my first post:

they're bred to hunt and bay up tough cattle- find them then circle the cattle holding them in one spot 'till you get there to move the cattle.

Which is a fine and legitimate way to work cattle, I just prefer a dog with a strong instinct to fetch. You can train that type of dog to drive also. It's just easier in my day to day operation to use a dog that'll bring the cattle, then all I have to do is open and close gates. I do agree that on cattle that are wild and not dog broke it can be easier to have the dogs hold them together and a person drive them in the correct direction.

Have you ever seen Gary Ericsson or Charlie Trayer's training videos? They demonstrate both methods with HTCs and Border Collies. Gary shows several times in the two tapes I have of his him and his brother using catahoulas. The beginning of the one tape shows him and a couple other people taking border collies, aussies, and catahoulas up in the mountains to round up some wild cattle. It was really neat to watch. He also has a tape that's entirely of them gathering wild cattle in different places, I don't have that one but would like to get it. Charlie's tape has only HTCs in it but he demonstrates a couple different methods of moving cattle, his tape is like a super condensed version of Gary's "Training the Working Stockdog". Gary's is a lot more in depth and has a lot of trouble shooting/problem solving info in it. Of course, it's also five hours long.