Shallow well pump not reaching pressure to shut-off!

[copperkid3]

Is this a pressure switch problem???

I tried this question a few days ago on the Shop Talk forum and only had one response......and I'm running out of ideas or places to ask this question. Anyone here have the ANSWER?!!!
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The tenant gave me a call this morning; stated that she had no water. So went up to take a looksy. This is a shallow well with a Burke pump and somehow it had tripped the breaker to avoid overheating. Tried to flip the breaker on and it made the pump hum and then kicked off the breaker again. Figured that impeller or bearing shot in pump and since I have replacement Burkes that I pick up at sales (garage, auctions, etc.), that it would be faster for everyone involved to just pull the pump out and replace it with one that runs. Unfortunately......the replacement(s) never line up quite right or there is just one part that doesn't quite fit......and you have to run to town to find it. Such was this case, but upon returning.....had everything back in order and rewired, primed the pump and hit the switch and lo and behold......we had water again!!! Truely a joy when everything comes together.....but wait; what do we have here? The pump is moving the pressure needle up to about 23-25 lbs. and continues to run.......this goes on for over 30 minutes. I fiddle with the nuts inside the pressure switch......nothing happens. Finally, I reluctantly reach up and flip the switch to the shut-off and the pump goes silent.......don't need to have it burn out after spending the effort to get it going. The tenant has enough water to take a shower, etc. for tonight......but something needs to be done tomorrow. Am I correct in thinking that the pressure switch is bad since it won't trigger the pump to shut off? Can I replace it with the parts off the old pump which had a replacement switch put on about a year or so ago? Is there anyone who can talk me thru what needs to be done on setting the nuts on the switches to the correct positions for proper running and shut-off? Any other suggestions/tips are as always.....most welcome.

thanks
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[12vman]

I would check the pressure tank. Is it the bladder type? Is the pressure set in the tank (at the empty setting) correct? Are you using the 2 line system with the jet in the well? I had one that wouldn't build up pressure because sand just wore it out..
Don

[littlejoe]

I don't believe it's a problem with the switch. It sounds like a leak in the line someplace. Do you have a valve on the far side of your pressure tank? If you do shut it down and see if you build pressure. If you don't build enough to shut off, then it's between the pressure tank and pump, if it's a submersible. Or between the PT and jet in the well if not a sub. If it doesn't then you know it's elsewhere.

[Nobody]

Alot of wells have a regulator, with a set screw. Mine does. I had the same problem. I had to adjust the set screw a few times and it started working.

[agmantoo]

I read this is a shallow well pump. However, I cannot determine if this is a one or a two line system . Is the setup the type where the pump circulates the water through a jet that is in the water? Since you only have pressure in the low 20s here are the possible causes.
You have a leak or faucet open downstream. Your strainer, in the well , is clogged. If it is a recirculate 2 line setup the jet is partially clogged. You do not need a tank to get pressure and to shutoff, you need the tank to hold the pressure, manintain prime and to provide reserve without the pump kicking in. The adjustment on the pump is for volume, not pressure. Open the adjustment too much and you will loose prime. The pump you took off has the start winding or its circuit defective

[speshuled]

if the expansion tank is bad the pump will usually kick off and on too frequently . it seems to me that you might have more than one problem because if left on the pump should pump more pressure than #35 . it could be the impeller or a leak . the pump staying on might be an adjustment in the pressure switch or a stuck contact . you might try to file the points in the switch , just remember to kill the power first . if you don't have a point file , a nice crisp dollar can work

[js2743]

i would think its the pump if its not building up pressure sounds like the old one you put back in is worn out maybe thats why it was out to start with maybe you just need a new pump. dont know what brand you have but goulds is a good brand that will last for years.

[rambler]

Just mentioned in the other forum, think you new used pump is too worn out to build up pressure.

--->Paul

[fishhead]

I was also wondering if the replacement pump impeller might just be worn out (maybe that's why it was at the garage sale in the first place). You may have to pull it apart if all else fails and take a look.

I use a Red Lion for moving some water on my farm. It runs for weeks at a time with no problem. I've even had it suck the 4" thin wall pvc inlet line flat several times and stay running for hours on end. The motor is rated continuous duty and evidently it doesn't need water for lubrication.

[agmantoo]

You need to clean all the supply lines to the pump itself and you need to install a cutoff valve between the pump and the line feeding the tank. A second cutoff valve from the tank to the home also is a major benefit when trouble shooting the system. If the pump then cannot make pressure , then consider pump replacement. My opinion is that there is an obstruction (partial) on the inlet to the pump.
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[logbuilder]

I'm wondering if the old pump had a built in check valve but the replacement doesn't. Could add one easily.

[EDDIE BUCK]

Go look under the house for a frozen pipe leak before you burn up all the pumps.

[copperkid3]

A lot of good suggestions and I thank you one and all. It will give me some more ideas on how to proceed on some. In going over them, I thought it might help to update and clarify some, if these were covered in more depth now.

The pressure tank is the bladder type; about 20 gallon size. The pump is a single line, shallow well Burke pump that sits in a heated, Michigan basement; so no frozen lines. The supply line comes out from the corner wall, just above the floor; and the well itself sits about 10 feet further out and runs about 20 foot deep. I've always used a Burke pump because of their relative simplicity, ease of use and replacement.....because they are all about the same, they just slide out and then slide in the next one. Usually everything works and we're back in business. Nothing ever changes; no regulators, no check valves.
I spent a good portion of the afternoon tearing apart the old pump; salvaging parts and also to see what was wrong with it. It appears that while the motor itself still runs, the impeller had corrorded and started to "hang-up".....which explains why the electrical breaker kept tripping. However, even if that hadn't been at fault, it also appears that it was living on borrowed time, as there is also a very noisy bearing that is/was about to fail in the motor itself. Being down in the basement with no one around to check on it on a regular basis.....oh well......(no pun intended)
Burke is good pump, built to last and had been around forever ......perhaps TOO good is more precise.......they eventually went the way of many who build an item that threatens the competition. They were bought out and then quickly and quietly discontinued. Parts are still out there, but are getting harder to locate now. I've got one more "spare" older model Burke that is going to be tried in place of my "problem child" tomorrow morning. Then if that fails.....guess it's time to call in some expert help. Though it seems that the professionals around my area, seem to know less about pumps and wells than some of us free-lancers!

[rambler]

Your subject line just seems to say it all - the pump is not putting out enough pressure.

It is possible there is a lack of water - frozen, low, pinhole air leak, water leak on the pressure side, obstruction, etc. You say all that is fine. Typically even with low water flow the pump would eventually make enough pressure anyhow, and yours does not.

That just leaves a worn out pump - can't create enough pressure any more. Your gauge is showing pretty low pressure.

The pressure tank is a non-issue.

The pressure switch could be faulty, not shutting your pump off. Ever. That is real hard on the pupm, and real hard on the pipes & tank. But you said a good gauge was showing less than 30 lbs of pressure. That is way too low.

So it all comes back to the pump not able to generate enough pressure any more. Worn impeller.

All the other suggestions are possibilities, and real odd-ball situations come up. But, you've done pretty good isolating it to point at - the impeller/pump being worn out.

--->Paul

[agmantoo]

The most common fault for what he is experiencing is a clogged supply such as the screen or jet. I acknowledge his pump is questionable. However, the pump at the low 20 PSI would have been taken out of service a long time before it dropped that low since it would have not have been getting anywhere near cutout pressure. IF the pump was pumping 30 plus PSI I would be less positive that the supply is partially clogged. He can put the input line in a pail of water an observe the PSI to eliminate the screen. He can open the jet and visually observe for clogging. He can also call a service person and learn nothing and be prepared for a service call and parts bill.

[rambler]

When my well screen pugged up with magneese, it made pressure. It pumped air, but it would make pressure. That's why I keep thinking the old used pump is a dud.

However, my setup was a deep well with the pump in the bottom. Surface pumps might be different than my experience.

My deep well was supplying about 40-60 gallons before the 'issue' would show up. (The standing water in the pipe.) Sure was fun that year, as the issue showed up at spraying time - kinda hated to take the well down in the middle of spraying; but was hard to wait for the sprayer to fill. Well guys decided for me, they were aweful busy that spring. So, I limped along.

--->Paul

[Jim S.]

If it's a jet pump (most certainly it is), clogged jet. You prolly loosened some rust or sediment while working on it, and it lodged there. I have been there, done that many, many times.

[copperkid3]

UPDATE ON THE SHALLOW WELL PUMP TROUBLE

Thought it was about time to bring everyone up to speed on what has transpired. Spent most of yesterday checking and rechecking the connections at the joints/black plastic pipe and then pulling them and redoing them again......ended up doing it at least (5) times before giving it up and pulling that pump out and putting in another "used" older Burks pump. After reconnecting it and powering it up......could only get a maximum of 10# of pressure!!! So instead of going forward, ended up getting further behind.....at least the other pump had 25#. Went home late......tired and defeated. This morning I decided to bite the bullet and called the pros and a short time later, 2 guys from the pump repair shop showed up and started to try and figure out what was wrong. Almost immediately they decided that "while the Burks was a good pump ......they are now out of business and parts are nearly impossible to get...." I could see where this was leading and sure enough, he turned the discussion very quickly into ....."we can hook you up with a BRAND NEW PUMP for only $376.00 which includes all labor.......plus tax." (In other words; $398.56) Of course he then hedged his quote, by stating that there might be a leak in the line leading out to the well....or in the well pipe itself.....all this without having even checking out that we had a 4" deep well covered pipe just 5 feet away and outside. I then invited him to take a look at the well. At this point he became more excited and stated that it was actually a deep well and that we could put a submersible in it and have more pressure with less trouble than using the shallow well pumps. However, his inept helper then broke off the set bolt on the side of the well cap and then both of them tried pounding on the die cast cap.....attempting to break it.....I quickly put a stop to that......as he also just previously mentioned that they would have to put on a special cap if they did put the submersible in ....which would cost $69.95.....plus tax!!! Having just put in submersible a few years before in our "new" house ....with the help from a friend.....I knew we could get that same cap for less than a third what he'd just quoted me......and figured these guys are just looking to rip-off the ill-informed. So they were paid their pound of flesh for less than 20 minutes on the scene ($69) and sent on their way.
My dad and I then went into town and started shopping and finally decided on a 1/2hp Flo-Max shallow well pump for $147.00 from Menards. Spent about 2 and half more hours putting the fittings together and making sure everything lined up perfectly, wiring it in.....then primed it and turned it on...... it ran and ran and .....continued running.....I began to get a bit nervous and re-read the instructions again....(okay, okay.....for the 1st time!!!) But it said that it should have water flowing after 5 minutes; and if not......to repeat the priming sequence and try again. As it started to approach 4 minutes.....I suddenly detected a "different" sound like a sucking sound when someone is trying to get that last bit of slurpy out of the bottom of their cup ......and suddenly there was a slight movement on the pressure gauge......and little by little it began creeping upwards......oh what a beautiful sight!! It approached and then suddenly passed by 40# and continued onward.....and when it hit 50# it quickly shut-off. Silence......just the "sound" that I'd been waiting for. Gathered up the tools and useless junked pumps and brought them out of the basement and over to the truck. And it was great to be able to look the tenant in the face and tell her she could now take a shower.....or whatever. She was VERY thankful as well. After working at trying to get some old and obsolete pumps to work for the past 3-4 days, I learned a hard lesson. Sometimes it pays to just buy new and get it finished right the first time. Anyway.... the job is finally DONE. Thanks all for your help and suggestions in this trying time.

[agmantoo]

The new pump finally pulled the trash from the jet and started pumping IMHO