Got Raw Milk? Be Very Quiet

[deaconjim]

Richard Hebron, 41, was driving along an anonymous stretch of highway near Ann Arbor, Mich., last October when state cops pulled him over, ordered him to put his hands on the hood of his mud-splattered truck and seized its contents: 453 gal. of milk.

Yes, milk. Raw, unpasteurized milk. To supply a small but growing market among health-conscious city and suburban dwellers for milk taken straight from the udder, Hebron was dealing the stuff on behalf of a farming cooperative he runs in southwestern Michigan. An undercover agricultural investigator had infiltrated the co-op as part of a sting operation that resulted in the seizure of $7,000 worth of fresh-food items, including 35 lbs. of raw butter, 29 qt. of cream and all those gallons of the suspicious white liquid. Although Hebron's home office was searched and his computer seized, no charges have been filed. "When they tested the milk, they couldn't find any problems with it," says Hebron. "It seems like they're just looking for some way to shut us down."

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...598525,00.html

[jersey girl]

Seems like they would have worse criminals to chase down. Ohio pulls all kinds of tricks also trying to bust raw milk people.
Joanie

[Selena]

Easy pickings for the sole purpose of revenue seems to be the norm for force for law enforcement these days. Violent crimes are up and identity theft/financial scams run rampant.

[DocM]

People have died from drinking raw milk. If the state doesn't allow the sales of raw milk for human consumption, then lobby to change the law, don't break the law and then expect people to be supportive of that. There are legitimate reasons to question the processing of any raw milk supply.

[Selena]

Originally Posted by DocM

People have died from drinking raw milk. If the state doesn't allow the sales of raw milk for human consumption, then lobby to change the law, don't break the law and then expect people to be supportive of that. There are legitimate reasons to question the processing of any raw milk supply.

Not a problem that slaughter houses and meat packing/processing plants are allowed to be bacteria havens. Oh wait, silly me, those are CORPORATE owned who find regulation 'onerous' and 'decrease profits'. And we can import fruits and veggies from countries who have no regulation, use DDT and lord knows what other chemicals. But heaven forbid people drink locally 'grown' milk or eat other locally grown foods because they are "unsafe", or in other words, not controlled and owned by corporations. I highly doubt a local farmer is going to be so sloppy and careless as to kill his customers. After all, they know where lives and he doesn't have a gate around his house and human/technological security.

[ldc]

Until the late 60's, family friends had a raw milk farm in North Eastern Pennsylvania. It was still allowed by law, but actively discouraged. They just tested (and had it tested) frequently for T.B. It's a shame when people run a clean dairy with healthy animals to not have a testing program to make it legal. ldcv

[DocM]

Originally Posted by Selena

Not a problem that slaughter houses and meat packing/processing plants are allowed to be bacteria havens. Oh wait, silly me, those are CORPORATE owned who find regulation 'onerous' and 'decrease profits'. And we can import fruits and veggies from countries who have no regulation, use DDT and lord knows what other chemicals. But heaven forbid people drink locally 'grown' milk or eat other locally grown foods because they are "unsafe", or in other words, not controlled and owned by corporations. I highly doubt a local farmer is going to be so sloppy and careless as to kill his customers. After all, they know where lives and he doesn't have a gate around his house and human/technological security.

When you can prove, scientifically, that raw milk benefits anyone except a baby cow, and you can prove that children should be exposed to the bacteria in raw milk (meat is generally cooked), then I'll listen to you. Until then, people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period.

[PinkBat]

Originally Posted by DocM

People have died from drinking raw milk.

Sugar kills some people......so let's ban it.
Salt raises blood pressure.....ban it.
Raw vegetables could harbor e-coli.....no more raw veggies for anyone.
Alcohol has killed people.....ban it.
Too many calories per day has killed many......from now on everyone gets a calorie ration card.

Why can't it be a person's choice which risks they are willing to accept????

Why do a few people get to decide what's best for the rest of us??????

[reluctantpatriot]

Originally Posted by DocM

When you can prove, scientifically, that raw milk benefits anyone except a baby cow, and you can prove that children should be exposed to the bacteria in raw milk (meat is generally cooked), then I'll listen to you. Until then, people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period.

If you are wanting to get between me and my food consumption decisions, hop right in when you are feeling froggy. As for calling me a criminal because I choose to consume raw milk and eat other farm raised local products, that is crossing the line to a personal attack.

The fact is, store bought milk makes me literally vomit not long after I drink it. The raw goat milk I milk myself from my dairy goats does not make me in the least bit sick. DO NOT tell me what to eat because I am an adult and can make my own decisions. My experience tells me to buy local, naturally produced, whole foods, not the commercially produced, factory farm food in name only products.

One also cannot keep children in a bubble to protect them from every microbe on this planet. Our bodies have an immune system for a reason. The problems only come when we either have a weakened immune system or we face conditions where our body is overwhelmed with an invader that out manouvers our body defenses.

[farminghandyman]

DOCM, When you can prove, scientifically, that raw milk benefits anyone except a baby cow,

I think all mammals give milk to the young, (some thing about the Name "mammal"), so thus all babies are benefited by the milk of there mothers, (I think if I with hold milk form a new born, mammal, it dies, I don't know it that is scientific enough for you but that is a fact).

Milk helps baby goats and people, and other mammals,

I agree, pasteurized milk probably doesnt help any one much,
as all the enzymes and vitamins and good things are killed in the process,

Pasteurization is a poor excuse to cover up unclean conditions and poor health of animals.

prove to me that raw milk is not beneficial scientifically,

SCIENCE has been making a lot of reversals, try trans fats for example, man alters and changes things saying it is the salvation of man and now 40 to 50 years later, WOW we made a mistake after we helped millions of people to die and be sick from our alterations of food,

GOD made food and man ate it for millions of years, does man know better than God?

I think the main reason was to run the small completion out of business,
(and it has worked wonderfully), just keep it in the has of large corporate American, they know best them and the GOVERNMENT.

my folks would take milk and cream into the creamery, eggs too, when they first started farming, still have one of the cream cans, it was common for ever town to have a creamery, it was the rule, not the exception, people were not dropping over like flies, hey I think we even won WW1 and WW2 with that system. feed the world for a number of years after WW2 with that system, it must have been pretty bad to be able to do all of that.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NOW if your real question is does a person need milk after infancy the answer is probably no,
but God created us with the ability to do many things, and one of those features is to enjoy different kinds of foods,
MILK is a food, just like wheat, corn, and other grains, meats, oils, vegetables, and fruits, and other.

I can live with out fruit, I can live with out meat, I can live with eggs, I can live with out a lot of things, but I do enjoy them all,
So are you the in charge of telling the world that milk is not a food to be enjoyed, or used?

[Selena]

Originally Posted by DocM

When you can prove, scientifically, that raw milk benefits anyone except a baby cow, and you can prove that children should be exposed to the bacteria in raw milk (meat is generally cooked), then I'll listen to you. Until then, people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period.

If raw milk was so "bad", we'd have no population given the centuries of raw milk consumption in the US, much less any place else. I remember drinking it as a child when visiting my grandparents. I'll take that risk for me and my children over e. Coli, listeria, salmonella and whatever else has been in the news over the past couple of decades. We can't keep our pet food supply safe in this country but ironically there are a lot less recall of pet food than human food. Best you and your kids stay home now lest one of those nasty bacteria be lying (or is that laying) in wait somewhere besides your house.

[oldgaredneck]

Originally Posted by PinkBat

Sugar kills some people......so let's ban it.
Salt raises blood pressure.....ban it.
Raw vegetables could harbor e-coli.....no more raw veggies for anyone.
Alcohol has killed people.....ban it.
Too many calories per day has killed many......from now on everyone gets a calorie ration card.

Why can't it be a person's choice which risks they are willing to accept????

Why do a few people get to decide what's best for the rest of us??????

You forgot tobacco! Gotta ban it too!

[seedspreader]

Originally Posted by DocM

Until then, people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period.

Does that extend to all areas and walks of life, or just this one?

I can think of a few laws that people didn't like in America and broke without ever trying to change the law...

Or engaged in behavior WHILE trying to change the law.

[tnborn]

Heck lets ban gasoline causes air pollution, ban cokes and other sodas have caffeine and are addictive, lets ban mcdonalds and other fast food joints due to calories and fat. Makes as much sense as the raw milk arrest.

[gilberte]

Originally Posted by PinkBat

Sugar kills some people......so let's ban it.
Salt raises blood pressure.....ban it.
Raw vegetables could harbor e-coli.....no more raw veggies for anyone.
Alcohol has killed people.....ban it.
Too many calories per day has killed many......from now on everyone gets a calorie ration card.

Why can't it be a person's choice which risks they are willing to accept????

Why do a few people get to decide what's best for the rest of us??????

By the year 2030 our daily ration of government "food" will be delivered to us and we won't have to worry about such controversy

[DocM]

Don't be obtuse.

The guy in the article is attempting to sell raw cow's milk in a state that bans the sale of raw cow's milk in this way. He got busted.

Obviously I meant that raw COW'S milk doesn't benefit anything other than a baby cow. To interpret that sentence differently is just plain... stupid. Take that personally if it fits, but it's not an attack, it's an observation.

Raw milk has NEVER been proven to be beneficial to any mammal other than the one it was originally designed for. However, many pathogenic diseases in milk HAVE been proven to be harmful. Meat is cooked, veggies are washed, you can't compare them to raw milk. If you're an adult and choose to drink bacteria, or eat raw eggs, go for it, however, children don't choose to drink bacteria and they are most commonly the victims of the diseases carried in raw milk.

Drink it all you want, I personally don't care. Break the law though, expect to go to jail.

Anyone can drink raw cow's milk off their own farm, there is no law stating differently. However, it IS illegal to sell in some states, for human consumption, raw milk.

Whether or not people change the law from within (legally), they're still bound to obey those laws of suffer prosecution. I don't care how many times in history people have broken laws in order to change them. It doesn't make it "right".

Do what you want. The guy broke the law. Selling raw milk where it's illegal to do so isn't less of a crime than any other.

Raw milk was consumed for years and people got sick and never equated the two. It still happens. There's also a huge increase in the numbers of diseases found in raw milk due to changes in diet/environment. Re: corn feeds increase the instances of pathogenic e coli bacterium counts in cattle/goats.

Oh, and [lets refrain from ordering other people around, shall we?]

[Obser]

Originally Posted by DocM

When you can prove, scientifically, that raw milk benefits anyone except a baby cow, and you can prove that children should be exposed to the bacteria in raw milk (meat is generally cooked), then I'll listen to you.

.

There is something to be said for having rigid convictions and high standards; however, there is also something to be said for considering wide-ranging aspects of any problem or condition and including differing viewpoints. One issue that comes to mind in the present discussion that may not occur to some people is whether on not a person should be “allowed” to decide if they wish to consume raw milk (or any “un-sanitized” food product).

As an adult citizen, I feel qualified to make decisions regarding my own health and about what foods I will consume. I appreciate information being made available for my consideration by government or private organizations; however, I do NOT appreciate politicians deciding what I may or may not eat. Those are personal decisions and are not properly the business of the federal or state government. There are other matters that government should attend instead of wasting time and resources making personal decisions for citizens.

I would option for more freedom and less “protection”. For those who wish to live in a cocoon of protection against all “hazards”, real and imagined, such a “cocoon plan of ultimate protection” could be made available by Halliburton or similar organization.

Originally Posted by DocM

People have died from drinking raw milk. If the state doesn't allow the sales of raw milk for human consumption, then lobby to change the law, don't break the law and then expect people to be supportive of that. There are legitimate reasons to question the processing of any raw milk supply.

___________ The total number of people EVER killed by drinking raw milk in the US (Please supply your best medical estimate).

783,936 The number of people killed by mistakes in medical examination and treatment (Iatrogenic Events) in the US EVERY year (the leading cause of death).

http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp...jury_in_us.htm

Doctors’ sloppy handwriting kills more than 7,000 people annually. It’s a shocking statistic, and, according to a July 2006 report from the National Academies of Science’s Institute of Medicine (IOM), preventable medication mistakes also injure more than 1.5 million Americans annually. Many such errors result from unclear abbreviations and dosage indications and illegible writing on some of the 3.2 billion prescriptions written in the U.S. every year.

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...578074,00.html

Perhaps this is some indication that drinking raw milk is not a major contributor to untimely death in the US.

Originally Posted by DocM

. . . people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period.

.

Voluntary cooperation with laws is a mainstay of government and it is a duty of citizenship to obey laws generally; however, a blanket statement “people who bypass or break the law should be punished, and those who want to change the laws, should do so through legal channels. Period”, is idealistic and naïve at best. Apply that reasoning to existing state laws that require automobile drivers to be preceded by a foot runner to alert horsemen and pedestrians of the coming danger.

[bill not in oh]

Originally Posted by farminghandyman

Pasteurization is a poor excuse to cover up unclean conditions and poor health of animals.

DING DING DING DING.... we have a winner!!

[reluctantpatriot]

Originally Posted by DocM

Raw milk has NEVER been proven to be beneficial to any mammal other than the one it was originally designed for. However, many pathogenic diseases in milk HAVE been proven to be harmful. Meat is cooked, veggies are washed, you can't compare them to raw milk....

Drink it all you want, I personally don't care. Break the law though, expect to go to jail....

Whether or not people change the law from within (legally), they're still bound to obey those laws of suffer prosecution. I don't care how many times in history people have broken laws in order to change them. It doesn't make it "right"....

Do what you want. The guy broke the law. Selling raw milk where it's illegal to do so isn't less of a crime than any other.

Raw milk was consumed for years and people got sick and never equated the two. It still happens. There's also a huge increase in the numbers of diseases found in raw milk due to changes in diet/environment. Re: corn feeds increase the instances of pathogenic e coli bacterium counts in cattle/goats....

Commercially packaged foods that follow, supposedly, all of the food guidelines can still sicken or kill you. Do I have to remind you of the spinach, scallions, meat and peanut butter recalls?

As for breaking the law, as you suggest, we should all go to jail. Ok, so get there now DocM since I am most certain that you, and everyone else on this board, has broken some law somewhere at the local, county, state or federal level whether we knew about it or not.

Also, just because something is "legal" does not make it moral or ethical. It was legal to own humans not that long ago in this country even though some thought it was morally and ethically repulsive. It also used to be illegal for colored and whites (using the terms of that time period) to mix in bathrooms, at water fountains and other areas, yet we had people break the law because they believed it to be morally and ethically wrong. If you want to paint legal with a broad brush, that is your freedom to do so. However, I prefer to go with ethics and morality to be my guide.

I can also get sick from eating professionally prepared foods from a restaurant and they are inspected regularly. I trust more the quality of foods I produce my self or buy from another homesteader level person than I do any commercially prepared foods. But you also say that if I break the law I should go to jail. That would mean if I crossed a state line into a certain state and drank milk from one of my goats that I just milked I could be jailed, but just move a foot or two to cross the line into another state and I would be fine. I harmed no one and I accept the risks. If someone asks me for milk, a benign substance, should I be afraid of being arrested when the law is not enforced on murderer and child molesters?

[menollyrj]

Originally Posted by DocM

... however, children don't choose to drink bacteria and they are most commonly the victims of the diseases carried in raw milk.

As a parent, it is my prerogative to decide what is best for my children, to weigh the benefit and the cost, and to decide accordingly. This would seem to be another decision taken out of the hands of parents in favor of Big Brother knows best. Anything can be done in the name of "the children."

-Joy