E-85 and corn prices?

[ceresone]

The debate about prices going up, and the new fuels being made, farmers needing more for their crops, etc, brought this to mind.
Last night on the news, it was said that E-85 will only be able to be used in dual fuel cars, of which there weren't many on the road.
Now, am I understanding this right, we're paying higher prices for feed, groceries, etc--and would have to buy a dual fuel car in some far off future to benefit? This dosent even seem right to me-glad our farm isnt too far from town. I'll be the old lady pulling a small wagon behind her, with groceries--not too many, cause cant afford them.

[tinknal]

That is only for E-85 fuel (85 % ethanol). Ethanol can be blended at 20% and burn well in any vehicle.

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

People have ridden to town with a horse and buggy for hundreds of years. The Amish still do. If it gets bad and too costly, pay a neighbor for gas and ride to town with them. They're shooting for about 15% of the population using ethanol, so that leaves about 85% using gasoline.

RF

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Rocky Fields

Hey.

They're shooting for about 15% of the population using ethanol, so that leaves about 85% using gasoline.

RF

100% of the population uses it in MN. It is blended at 10% in all gasoline (soon to be 20%.

[Beeman]

Originally Posted by ceresone

The debate about prices going up, and the new fuels being made, farmers needing more for their crops, etc, brought this to mind.
Last night on the news, it was said that E-85 will only be able to be used in dual fuel cars, of which there weren't many on the road.
Now, am I understanding this right, we're paying higher prices for feed, groceries, etc--and would have to buy a dual fuel car in some far off future to benefit? This dosent even seem right to me-glad our farm isnt too far from town. I'll be the old lady pulling a small wagon behind her, with groceries--not too many, cause cant afford them.

It's funny but I see fewer and fewer ways to do things cheaply. There is no doubt that no matter what direction the fuel situation goes it will cost more. As you said about a vehicle you will possibly have to convert your current older paid for vehicle or buy a newer already to go E85 vehicle. I'm sure the other alternative is to keep burning gas but I'm sure the price and taxes will jump. Then you have the problem of what if you guessed wrong and etahnol isn't the answer but instead another possibility comes by. What do you do then?

[Rocky Fields]

Tinknal,

I was talking about E85...as per thread subject. And we already know it's a general figure. The meat of the matter is that gasoline won't be disappearing soon, so Ceresone will be able to use her car for quite some time.

RF

[Cindy in PA]

There is supposedly 5 million dual fuel cars on the road, many people don't even know they exist. My van is a flex fuel vehicle, many vans have been for 10 (?) years. If the media would get off "corn" ethanol and start talking about switch grass and sugar beets, the price of corn would go down. By the way, oil consumption makes all our groceries go up too, because they are transported around the globe. Things are not going to get better or cheaper with any kind of fuel, so where do we go from here?

[tinknal]

I'm all for rising food prices. Americans are spoiled on cheap food. Heaven forbid a small farmer might someday be able to make a living.

[arabian knight]

E-85 has been around in some vehicles now for 3 Years~! My friends have a 04, Ford Sport Trac 4 x 4 pick up, and that is a "Flex Fuel" Vehicle~! And now they have 80K on it and have been using mostly E-85 in it over the years.

[Beeman]

Originally Posted by tinknal

I'm all for rising food prices. Americans are spoiled on cheap food. Heaven forbid a small farmer might someday be able to make a living.

This increase in corn prices from the bio-fuel idea is most likely going to hurt the small farmer in the long run, but time will tell us this story.

[Explorer]

I have had an E-85 vehicle since 2001 and they wee available before that.

Not only the price of corn will go up also natural gas that is used to make fertilizer for corn. Then your electric power because many plants use Natural Gas as fuel, then every thing that uses power in the manufacturing cycle and on an on. I am expecting inflation to run at 7-10% for many years.

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

Tinknal said: "I'm all for rising food prices. Americans are spoiled on cheap food. Heaven forbid a small farmer might someday be able to make a living."

The food prices are going up, but the increase is going to the middleman. Biofuel frenzy is increasing fertilizer prices as we speak. Feedcorn seed prices are going up. The price of meat and dairy products will have to go up too for farmers to survive. The terms of the new farm bill are important.

RF

[Beeman]

To the little man it's a very big gamble to jump in on this cause you're playing in the big boy's ballpark. Those that invest heavily betting on corn might be big losers when the next thing comes along. The Pres. was in Brazil and they use sugar cane if I remember correctly and most research here is pointing to switchgrass and algae. Corn just makes Americans feel good and it makes a good marketing campaign with go yellow to go green.

[reluctantpatriot]

Actually, the more ethanol you use, the more gasoline you will use. Ethanol is less energetically dense than gasoline per volume. At 10 percent ethanol-gasoline blend, I lose between 5 and 10 miles per gallon, depending on whether you are talking stop and go or open road driving. If it goes to 20 percent ethanol, then I'm going to be using even more gasoline blended with ethanol just to go the same distance.

I could see some of this being better if it wasn't that ethanol is so heavily subsidized right now to make it cheaper at the pump.

[arabian knight]

I have Noticed NO drop at all in gas mileage and my friends who have that Ford 4 X 4 actually Picked UP 1 to 2 miles per gal over straight gas while they are using E-85~! And now that their mileage is over 75,000 on that pickup it is getting better with E-85 then ever since they got it new~! They are now at 18 where for years they never got over 16 with it.
I take trips to MO and I have closely watched gas mileage and I have Never gotten under 29 and I have got as high as 30.5 using a 10% blend in my 94 Buick Century, doing 67 with the cruise set and that is a small v6 also at 3.1

[reluctantpatriot]

Originally Posted by arabian knight

I have Noticed NO drop at all in gas mileage and my friends who have that Ford 4 X 4 actually Picked UP 1 to 2 miles per gal over straight gas while they are using E-85~! And now that their mileage is over 75,000 on that pickup it is getting better with E-85 then ever since they got it new~! They are now at 18 where for years they never got over 16 with it.
I take trips to MO and I have closely watched gas mileage and I have Never gotten under 29 and I have got as high as 30.5 using a 10% blend in my 94 Buick Century, doing 67 with the cruise set and that is a small v6 also at 3.1

I am going with my actual mileage figures using my personal vehicle, a 1994 Mercury Sable with a 3.8 liter engine and four speed overdrive automatic. If I were to give the factory fuel mileage figures from an E85 vehicle, the Ford F-150 four wheel drive version with a 4.6 liter, a 2006 model for Missouri states that for 100 percent gasoline it is 16 city/20 highway. For E85 it is 10 city/14 highway. That is from the local Ford dealer's inventory.

While there are a multitude of factors that makes actual mileage different depending on vehicle and driver, given that ethanol has less energy per comparable volume of gasoline, it doesn't surprise me that one has fewer miles per gallon the more ethanol that is used. For someone to obtain better miles per gallon with ethanol, I would have to wonder about the validity of those statements.

I also have to go with the Missouri Corn Growers Assocation when they state that while the torque and horsepower is slightly boosted, mileage is reduced. That much I do believe as I have used up to 10 percent ethanol in my car and have driven enough miles in it to know what it does in my vehicle.

I will go with the manufacturer, corn growers assocation and my own personal experience to state my view. I cannot take yours to be factual.

[reluctantpatriot]

Below is information copied from the EPA fuel mileage page. Due to how the page was laid out, the first MPG figure is for E85 and the second, below it, for 100 percent gasoline.

2007 Ford F150 Pickup FFV 4WD


Flexible-fueled Vehicle
Use Your Gas Prices & Annual Miles

2007 Ford F150 Pickup FFV 4WD

Compare side-by-side

Switch to Metric Units

EPA Fuel Economy


Fuel Type

E85

Gasoline

MPG (city)

10

14

MPG (highway)

13

18

MPG (combined)

11

15


Fuel Economics

Cost to Drive 25 Miles

$4.80

$4.18

Fuel to Drive 25 Miles

2.27 gal

1.67 gal

Cost of a Fill-up

$49.37-$56.97

$58.73-$67.77

Miles on a Tank

257-297 miles

351-405 miles

Tank Size

26.0-30.0 gal

26.0-30.0 gal

Annual Fuel Cost*

$2877

$2511


* Based on 15000 annual miles and a fuel price of $ 2.51 per gallon of gasoline and $2.11 per gallon of E85 . Use Your Gas Prices & Annual Miles

Energy Impact Score The energy impact score shows the number of barrels of petroleum used by the vehicle each year.

E85

Gasoline

Annual Petroleum Consumption
(1 barrel=42 gallons)

7.3 barrels/year

22.8 barrels/year

Environment

E85

Gasoline
Range (miles)

290

390

Size Class

Standard Pickup Trucks 4WD

Engine Size (liters)

5.4

Cylinders

8

Transmission

Automatic (4 speed)

Drive

4WD or AWD

Gas Guzzler

no

Turbocharger

no

Supercharger

no

Passenger Volume

NA

Luggage Volume

NA

Engine Characteristics

RNG=390

Trans Characteristics

CLKUP




How are fuel cost estimates and miles on a tank determined?
Fuel cost estimates are based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, 15000 annual miles and a fuel cost of $ 2.51 per gallon of gasoline and $2.11 per gallon of E85 . You may customize these values to reflect the cost of fuel in your area and your own driving patterns.

Fill-up cost and the distance you can travel on a tank are calculated based on the combined MPG and the assumption that you will re-fuel when your tank is 10% full.

[Beeman]

Could the increase in corn prices be due to the increase in demand for corn meal for tortillas due to the immigration?

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Rocky Fields

Hey.

Tinknal said: "I'm all for rising food prices. Americans are spoiled on cheap food. Heaven forbid a small farmer might someday be able to make a living."

The food prices are going up, but the increase is going to the middleman. Biofuel frenzy is increasing fertilizer prices as we speak. Feedcorn seed prices are going up. The price of meat and dairy products will have to go up too for farmers to survive. The terms of the new farm bill are important.

RF

It will increase the amount of grass fed beef. This will cause the supply of beef to drop (cattle slaughtered at 900 to 1100 lbs rather than 1300 to 1500 lbs). This will bring beef prices up. Same goes for dairy. Higher beef prices will increase demand for pork and poultry.

Y'll need to start looking at the big picture. Life (or agriculture) does not exist in a vacuum.

[Beeman]

We can keep going round and round. The grass fed beef will have no grass because the fields will be planted for bio fuel crops. This will increase imported beef from areas that are cutting forests for grazing lands. This will also emit more carbons in the shipment of the products burning more and more fuel which is what we were trying to avoid or change in the first place.

In the global picture I'd bet against the small farmer. If the small farmer wants to survive he needs to look at localization instead of trying to compete with the global thinking people.