Boy, some prices have really gone up!

[Beeman]

Went to the feed store to buy laying pellets today. A few months ago it was $8 for 50 lb bag, then it creeped up to $8.85. Today it was $9.75 and they said it ain't stopping there. He said his milk replacer jumped a lot in price, went to $6 more than he was selling it for since last shipment. We all have seen gas jump .30 in a week. Name brand (Mayfield) milk is almost $5 a gal. at WM and the grocery store, heck their store brand is almost $4 a gal.
Don't get me wrong, things are still good, I can afford all I need and the store has all I want, but it's gonna take a lot more money in the near future to keep up this luxurious lifestyle I lead.

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

Thank ethanol for much of the increase - i.e. the corn prices.

We are changing our custom feed mix to substitute oats in place of some of the corn. Will be looking at other grains such as barley too. It just depends what gives us the most nutrients for the dollar.

[jerzeygurl]

Originally Posted by YuccaFlatsRanch

Thank ethanol for much of the increase - i.e. the corn prices.

We are changing our custom feed mix to substitute oats in place of some of the corn. Will be looking at other grains such as barley too. It just depends what gives us the most nutrients for the dollar.

ah you beat me too it,

the local ethenol plants will soon be raising there own cattle to feed the mash and to use the methane from the poop....so we can soon forget about competing

we are looking into puttin in alfalfa, my dd did well with that.

and to the op when you said mayfield i knew you were in TN( my birthpace)
I have a big brown and yellow mayfield sign on my wall( big jersey face)

[phantompark]

Yup it be the ethanol.
Who is using it anyways?
DH works on skidsteers and they can't run more than 10% ethanol without ruining engines. ie. Corrossive to fuel system, ect....
They are actually not recommending it as they won't guarantee an engine.

As for the waste mash, cow nutritionists are warning not too feed it... but I'm sure they will. Yum Yum...
Some of the methane digesters in use are seeing similar issues, destructive corrosion in the engines and fuel systems.
Hopefully the whole thing will crash as engines are ruined.

It takes more fossil fuels to produce ethanol than ethanol saves.
Fuel for tractors to plow, plant, spray, harvest corn. Maybe propane to dry the corn (not sure if it is dried first)
Then the fuel to transport it to a plant.
Then the natural gas to produce the ethanol. Then the fuel to transport it to the consumer. Who can't fill the whole tank up with it as it will ruin the engine....
Oh and don't forget the petroleum based fertilizers, pesticides and herbicides used on the corn plants. Those are sooooo good for the environment.
Did you know Roundup Ready corn is the prefered corn for ethanol plants, that is from Monsanto advertising!
Ain't ethanol great!!

[Bruce in NE]

You said it all, phan. Boycott corn!

[LittleRedHen]

How long until this ethanol thing goes bust and we can get back to affording corn?

[DaleK]

Geez what a bunch of whiners! For years now you've been getting cheap corn on the backs of corn growers and taxpayers, now you're paying the real cost of growing it and giving a (very small) return to growers and all you can do is whine about it. If you can't afford to buy corn at a fair price to growers, get rid of your livestock, you can't afford to feed them the way you have been!

[LittleRedHen]

Its one thing if the corn was going to something worth while :P

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

"Geez what a bunch of whiners! For years now you've been getting cheap corn on the backs of corn growers and taxpayers, now you're paying the real cost of growing it and giving a (very small) return to growers and all you can do is whine about it"

NOPE - other grains are available to mix in the feed mix. Some used to be more expensive, but now?? We will see the prices next month.

[DianeWV]

This discussion strikes home with me. Of course, everyone's needs and situation is unique....it's really contingent upon how you utilize your land, livestock, crops, etc. Its a balancing act. In the spirit of homesteading/small farming and self-reliance, why not grow corn, or other grains that might otherwise be purchased? Everyone take care.

[LittleRedHen]

Unfortunately we can barely grow grass (moss grows the best) here. I have to rely on market prices for my corn and other feed.

[Rowdy]

It's not just corn though. I just bought some black poly pipe from TSC to be able to water some stuff. In the old TSC blue book it was listed at about $50 for 300', now it is $70. $20 a roll adds up if you are going very far!

[kathy H]

The salid mix I get used to be Two bags for four dollars, Just last week it is two bags for five dollars.

[65284]

I just bought a ton of layer pellets (40 bags) they went from $299.00 delivered and stacked in the feed shed, to $314.00. After a prompt payment discount it figures out to $7.90 per bag. Looking back at my tickets I see that just over 2 years ago it was running $4.80 per bag, wow it had sneaked up on me, didn't realize the price creep had become a gallop. Going to be some serious culling take place aroung here....soon!

[reluctantpatriot]

I will grant that perhaps ethanol, in one aspect, does help farmers. It gives them a localized market for their crops and I am hearing directly from local farms what that means to their bottom line.

However, it is short sighted to think that growing biofuels will ever free us from importation of foreign oil. We would be better off moving to a post-industrial society where fossil fuel consumption would be significantly less. That will not happen though. We might also try to use the remaining easily obtained fossil fuels to make alternative energy items like solar panels. That will not happen either.

Those fretting over the rising cost of feed and wishing to cull their flocks and herds will converge and receive a lower price than if they held out longer until after the culling boom passes. Personally, I free range and graze my animals and use the feed pellets and hay bales to help them through winter when the browsing opportunities are thin.

I do what I need to do so that things work for me. It becomes harder and harder to do so every day, but I do the best I can.

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

However, it is short sighted to think that growing biofuels will ever free us from importation of foreign oil. We would be better off moving to a post-industrial society where fossil fuel consumption would be significantly less. That will not happen though.

We already have in this country. Something like 70% of our worker are in the service field and industry has moved overseas. Extremely few are willing to move back to the farm and a life of hardship without modern farm equipment.

[rambler]

Wow. Last year everyone was complaining about farmers getting such big govt handouts. 'Everyone' chimed in that farmers should make it on their own.

So, now, farmers here in Minnesota build 27 ethanol plants, and 2-3 biodiesel plants, try to make some fuel, try to use their surplus crops, try to help the environment...

And here is the same bunch, whining about _that_ too.

Ain't nothing going to make you folks happy, is there?

Made up lies about govt farm programs back then; and make up lies about ethanol now. Whatever story makes you feel good.

Unbelievable. Just unbelievable.

I expect such nonesense from town folk - they are so far removed from agriculture that they don't know any better.

But - homesteaders? Pulling the same junk?

Sad.

--->Paul

[reluctantpatriot]

I talked with industrial experts and a university professor all promoting biofuels during meetings of a county economic development non-profit corporation in the past several months. I listened to what they had to say and then did my own research to follow up on what they said. What I have found is all the pie in the sky promotion of biofuels leaves out the quantity of fossil fuel resources needed to make the biofuels. They also leave out the fact that demand for fossil fuels continues to climb at a constant rate yet the quantity of biofuel that can be produced is finite and yields also depend upon fossil fuel derived fertilizers and pesticides and herbicides.

I am NOT against farmers earning profit. I am against the snow job that biofuels will supply ALL our domestic fuel needs when using the experts' own data they present shows that even with all current and in process plants going full tilt the production might produce a few precent of our national fuel needs, yet depends on fossil fueled equipment and vehicles to move the biofuel destined crops, to harvest them, to transport the finished biofuel to fuel mixing and distribution points and so on.

What also has me greatly concerned is the one university professor who said the county seat here would need the equivalent of 15 square miles of timber to supply enough feedstock to use the (still experimental in the lab) pyrolysis method to create petroleum products like diesel fuel for the town of about 2,500 people. The professor said to supply enough for the entire county 150 square miles of timber are needed. That much area is needed per year. The county has approximately 650 square miles of area. Even if they only use deadwood, as the professor suggests, they will run out of it in four years.

It was also suggested that we replace the local trees with fast growing species of pine. So now they want to replace natural ecosystems with monocultures. I have seen what happened when the oak borer beetles came through and the distruction is terrible, but we still have other trees holding the minimal soil on the ridges. What happens if a pest comes and destroys miles and miles of a single tree species and no other species are there to hold the soil? Most of the county I live in is better off being timbered than farmed.

I want farmers to make an honest, sustainable, ecologically ethical living. Perhaps I ask too much?

[Cornhusker]

Originally Posted by ChickenLittle

How long until this ethanol thing goes bust and we can get back to affording corn?

We won't need the ethanol industry to go bust.
Right now, corn is high. A lot of farmers who don't normally grow corn will start growing corn because of the potential for profit, and the diverse farmer will drop out of wheat, beans, whatever and jump on the corn wagon.
Eventually, they'll be growing more corn than they can sell, there will be a surplus and the price will drop back down.
In the meantime, the price of wheat and beans and whatever will shoot up due to a shortage caused by everyone growing corn.
If you are going to make it farming, you have to be flexible and adaptable. We'll just need to find something else to feed until the corn prices go back down or livestock prices go up.

[rambler]

Originally Posted by reluctantpatriot

What I have found is all the pie in the sky promotion of biofuels leaves out the quantity of fossil fuel resources needed to make the biofuels. They also leave out the fact that demand for fossil fuels continues to climb

What also has me greatly concerned is the one university professor who said the county seat here would need the equivalent of 15 square miles of timber to supply enough feedstock to use the (still experimental in the lab) pyrolysis method to create petroleum products like diesel fuel for the town of about 2,500 people.

I want farmers to make an honest, sustainable, ecologically ethical living. Perhaps I ask too much?

I hope I am fair in shortening your quotes to 3 points.

Every ethical, honest study on ethanol production from corn in the USA has shown a 1/3 gain in energy from the entire process. Starting with an empty field, including the fuel & fert & weed control, through harvest, transport, processing a bu into2.8+ gal of fuel, 17 lbs of feed, & bubbly gas, and delivering those products into the supply stream - one gets a net gain in energy.

Did you including the value of the feed, and the carbonated gas? It is a product of the plant, and must have a value given to it.

There is no credible report that supports your conclusion on this. There was one professor somehere that didn't like ethanol, and so didn't account for the byproducts, and tried to use the sunshine & the power of rainfall as negative energy credits to the process. He had an axe to grind, and his flawed eport has been rebuked countless times by people on all sides of issues.

Biodiesel has even higher net energy return.

=====

Still and all, farmers & most folks in the biofuel industry have no delusions that ethanol or soybeans will totally replace & supply our liquid fuels. I do not believe that is possible, and those few claiming that are just as silly & mis-informed as that professor I talk about above.

Ethanol mostly helps - some - change the pollution from gasoline, and makes the air quality a bit better. Unil we get some better technologies, that is it's biggest claim to fame. It will stretch out fuel supplies a bit, and help air quality a bit. Those are good things. No, it doesn't make pure air come out of tailpipes; and no it doesn't replace all our fuel needs, nor can it keep up with an exponential increase in liquid fuel useage.

But we are better off with the moderate help it gives us, than to sit on our hands and do nothing? Twenty years from now, we better have something better going on - perhaps corn & soybeans will still be a part of that whole solution. Perhap not. But either way, it will help us in getting from here - to there.

I don't know of any practical way of turning fiber prodcts (wood, cornstalks, wheat straw, rice straw, etc.) into diesel fuel? There are new processes that can turn them into ethanol, and while they don't yet produce enough product to be energy-positive, many feel we can get there from here. Trying to project acres needed from today's production would not be sound science - this is an experimental effort, & every month the efficiencies improve. Perhaps in 10 years, they will find enough breakthroughs to make this a real enegy recource. Many of these items are waste products left over from wood or grain production, and harvesting 1/3 of them does not seem to cause negative eccological effects. If the enzyme process can be imporved, probably 10-fold; and the issues of efficient plant size vs hauling such large bulky product can be balanced - we will have something real to work with.

_Today_ fermenting biomass is no where near viable, several pilot plants are being built but only for experimenting & learning. It is a look to the future, and holds some promise to provide us with some net energy production from things that are mostly in our way today.

========

Your definition of the terms in your last paragraph requires us to somehow reduce the population on this planet, have each remaining person use less energy, and return to a substinance ag-based society.

Getting there from here is at the least a very difficult thing. Given a chance, every society has chosen to go away from that hard work, self-sustaning 'simple' lifestyle.

Perhaps that change will have to be forced upon us humans some day, & the armogedon stuff will be the only way to get there. I do not see human beings making that choice en mass in any easy, orderly way. On the contrary, China, Brazil, and the rest are going to the 'natural' progression of leaving farming behind, and working out of concentrated cities.

The few of us - you & I - who choose a different path cannot force the rest to join us? I do not believe that to be ethical.

I see current ag methods to be just as sustainable & ethical as the old ways which could not support as many people with as little ecological disturbance as today's modern farming does.

We would either need to drastically increase our farm land, or drasticlly reduce our population.

Neither of those seem very ethical - when one considers the methods one would have to use.

Remember, 100s of thousdands of acres of farm land is lost to housing every year in the USA. As well the govt (you & I) have retired 30 million acres of land from ag use and turned it into wildlife habitat.

And yet we produce more grain, with less tillage, less erosion, decade after decade.

Sustainable? At least as much as your methods of feeding people. And surely much more ethical.

Thanks for the conversation.

--->Paul