BUILDING A HOUSE IN THE "SNOW BELT"

[BASIC]

HI,I'd like to know your suggestions about building a house in areas of heavy snowsuch as western New York,the area that just got over 100" in a few days.Where we live now we average about 50" plus a year(not this year though).If we do move we'd go to an area that gets much more than we.Thanks for any ideas.

[MelissaW]

I always like to look at the historic archetecture of the particular region. In the old days, they seemed to build to suit the weather much more than we do today. We are in the Ohio snow belt, and we built a house with a very steep roof pitch, proportionate windows (so many of today's builders are using ridiculously oversized or inappropriate windows), and a wide front porch which not only shelters the front of the house from blowing snow, but offers shade and protection during this areas hot, humid summers. A mud room is also a huge benefit, not so much structurally, but to protect the interior rooms from wet or muddy boots and pets. Planting windbreaks early is also a good idea. Best of luck with your new house!

[BASIC]

MelissaW,thanks for the reply.I've read about houses in the Tug Hill region of NY,the snowiest place east of the Rockies,300"+)that have a second floor door to the ouside in case the first floor is snowed in.

[MelissaW]

My goodness! I generally like snow, but I think that would be pushing it!

[minnikin1]

Too keep driveways short, (less to plow), the houses here are oddly close to the road.
A floor plan that would put most of the windows and outdoor areas on the private side of the house would be my choice.

We wanted to be able to take care of critters without going outside, and were thinking of a series of attached bldgs. We wound up buying a very big former dairy barn with the residence inside of it -
Some old european homesteads have examples of how this was done.

Think hard about your sunlight exposure, too. With so many grey winter days here, every time the sun shines you'll want to soak it in, even if the snow is piled up over first floor windows...

[OntarioMan]

In an area with that much snow, I'd start thinking towards heated driveways, walks, long covered car ports, backup generator, increased drainage around the structure, etc.

Snow can be extemely heavy - so I'd assume you'd see very steeply pitched roofs - and designs to handle the increased loads.

100" in a few days - it would be a challenge to even find somewhere to put that much snow from a driveway.

[bill not in oh]

Think A-frame... LOL

Originally Posted by OntarioMan

it would be a challenge to even find somewhere to put that much snow from a driveway.

I was following the news stories from that area. They showed quite a few pics of folks shoveling or blowing driveways that were virtually topless tunnels - 8-10 foot walls of snow with a path to drive through. Scary...

[stanb999]

Originally Posted by MelissaW

I always like to look at the historic archetecture of the particular region. In the old days, they seemed to build to suit the weather much more than we do today. We are in the Ohio snow belt, and we built a house with a very steep roof pitch, proportionate windows (so many of today's builders are using ridiculously oversized or inappropriate windows), and a wide front porch which not only shelters the front of the house from blowing snow, but offers shade and protection during this areas hot, humid summers. A mud room is also a huge benefit, not so much structurally, but to protect the interior rooms from wet or muddy boots and pets. Planting windbreaks early is also a good idea. Best of luck with your new house!

I kind figure that they built them as best they could years ago. But to say they were better built is false. But if you go see the ones that are still standing then they are the "better" built ones. If they weren't then they fell in years ago.

As for building in the snow belts. Have a roof pitch greater than 7/12 (steeper the better). Use a steel roof if it's in the budget. Place the gutters about 6" lower than you would in other areas (This will let the snow slide by.)

When sighting the house try to get the roof of the structure exposed to prevailing winds running with the ridge. This will cause the snow to be blown off even after the storm ends. But try to protect the walls with wind breaks low trees or shrubs).
Go out and look at the oldest homes standing (in NY that means older than 150 years) and look to mimic the situation as best you can.

[BeckyW]

Here are some Rocky Mt observations:
1. Steep pitch metal roofs
2. South-facing windows taking advantage of solar heating (Rockies are the 2nd best solar heating area in the nation - lots of sunshine out here!) Build using solar principles.
3. Heated driveways, at least the part closest to the garage, are done up by the ski resorts. Generally, though, if your garage is south-facing nature helps you a bit. They also heat stairs.
4. Build for the storm of the century - go beyond local building code minimums.
5. Ditto the above on insulation - build beyond the minimum R# ratings.
6. Roll-up garage doors so you don't have to move much snow to get the equipment out!
7. chimneys only at the peak of the roof - don't risk mountains of snow pushing against it on the edge of a roofline.
8. Build storage areas that you can access without going outside.
9. Plan on being self-sufficient: heat, power.
10. Have your skis already ready! (And snow mobiles aren't necessarily toys - they're emergency preparedness!)
BW

[seedspreader]

Not only a "mudroom" make sure that you have to go through an enclosed room to get to at least on entrance to the house.

We have a breezeway between the attached garage and the house, it saves a ton of lost heat to a door that just opens directly to a porch, etc.

Face garage or barns on the leeward side of the wind (where ever your predominant weather comes from. If possible have the door running at the ends of your peaks on your roofs.

[seedspreader]

Oh, and check out how houses are built in Lake Tahoe area, where this is the AVERAGE snow every winter.

[Hoop]

Build with steep pitched roofs and use metal for roofing material. 6/12 pitch is good. 8/12 pitch is better. The snow slides off, usually on its own, but may need some prodding from a "snow rake".

Another thing I commonly see in the "Yooper" snow belt of Michigans Upper Peninsula is location of the house & garage. Garages are often located VERY close to the road. This means less driveway to plow, snowblow or shovel.

I live about 60 miles south of the "snow belt", the region near Lake Superior that receives 200 - 300 inches of snow each year.....but every 10 years or so, we'll get 4 feet of snow or more.
This has the effect of "thinning out" old buildings, that collapse under the strain of snow load. Unoccupied flat roofed older trailers (or those occupied by owners to lazy to remove snow off the roof) collapse in droves when heavy snowfall years occur.

The buildings that usually collapse around here are pole buildings, which have insufficient roof pitch (3/12 or 4/12). The weight from snow (especially if some rain falls on it & adds greatly to its weight) is simply too much and the walls bulge out and crumble. Several commercial places that stores boats during the winter season collapse, completely destroying the boats, which often are uninsured.

Houses rarely collapse. I can't remember any house that collapsed because of snow load. Then again, most people are smart enough to realize it would be a good idea to shovel off their roofs when 3'+ of snow sits on their roof. The worst I can remember was the bowling alley here in town. The entire building collapsed. It was however, later determined that it had been leaking water for decades, resulting in erosion of the block walls, which led to its demise.

Several commercial buildings such as schools & hospitals face severe problems in heavy snow years because some moron architect from sunny Arizona designed the buildings with flat roofs. More than once, jail inmates hand shoveled these roofs off to prevent their collapse.

[painterswife]

I live in Weastern Wyoming and before that Whistler BC.
We had 5 feet on the ground here last year.

Design for snow load, We have a low sloped metal roof and we do not worry about the weight, we built for it.

If the roof is steep, you need to make sure that all entries and walkways do not have snow falling on them( including the garage doors). When it comes off people can be hurt(also pets). Also trees and plants will be damaged. Also it will pile up past the windows on the first floor in a good snow years!

Snow storage from driveways and walkways is important. Where will you blow or push it?

Drainage!!! When it starts to melt where will it go. Away from the house and foundation!!

Just a few things to keep in mind.

Jill

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

This is all good advice high r value good roof load, reasonable pitch, south facing, wood stove, coverd entries , and i am going to add get a 2 stage snow blower at least 8 horse power and it is nice to have a light on it to and tire chains airens is a good brand but there are others

and don't make your drive way to steep enough to make water go away from the house butnot to much to make it up i have a freind they bought a house on a hill in the summer it had a very steep drive way in 30 feet it probabley went up 10 feet
this was crazy he spent a huge amount of time money and energy keeping it clear
because even a light dusting would make it impossable to get up the hill

also there is a house on my way home big fancy place about 6 years old just got a new drive way from the uphill side of the property so they wouldn't have to climb the hill to get to the garage

the only thing i don't agree with is the heated stairs ,drive way ,side walks
we don't do this in wisconsin anywere i have seen sounds like a bug waist of electricity to me not would i expect it to work at 20 below 0 anyway

good boots ,snow pants , and layers
personaly i find walking on a layer of packed snow better/ easier than trying to keep toataly free of ice with melting ans thawing

and use sand not salt especialy if below 10 degrees

and if your cars are not going to be in the garage get a heater to plug your car in tank or block are best

i like a little longer drive than some are talking about but to me it is worth it to be farther off the street and you can park your cars because the last thing i want to have to do is pask somthing on the street

i work with a guy who parks on the street i think he is crazy but not just because he parks on the street when he has a perfectly good drive way and yard

the freind with the steep drive learned to hate winter and moved to arizona
and thats were his wife was from

[ET1 SS]

Around here it is very common to see second story doors. Just a door leading outside with no stairs, no deck, just a door up 12 foot off the ground. So they can always get out.

Also all barns are connected to the house.

[highlands]

I disagree with the heated drive, etc. That is a total waste of energy. Instead just let the snow build up and drive/walk on top of it. That is what we've always done and what has been traditionally done around here. The layer packs down hard and makes an excellent driveway and safe, non-slip walking surface for much of the year - you know, the time called winter that goes from October to April, sometimes longer.

Mud room and breezeways are a must to catch snow, mud and heat.

Many paned windows are a must. I like 4 or more panes of glass. I've built some windows with six and when it gets to be -45°F they have no frost on the inside. At that temp the 4 pane windows get a little inside.

Lots of south facing glass with overhangs. Interior drapes or window insulation are good.

Thick insulated walls are important. I like to put thermal mass on the inside as we are doing with our new house. The new house is built of stone and concrete including the roof. It has tremendous thermal mass so it stores the heat for a long time without the addition of more. My goal is a self heating house and we're very close.

Being that the house is made of stone and concrete it doesn't even notice deep snows. It is better to keep the snow accumulated on the roof as that gives us insulation. I prefer that to trying to guarantee the snow will shed. Even with a very steep roof the snow does not always shed. That means that you have to design and build for the maximum 500 year load anyways or you'll lose the house. Given that, just keep the snow on the roof and enjoy the benefits and never shovel the roof. (Leads to falls.)

Make for good protection from the prevailing winter wind. Wind steals heat. We get high winds. 20 to 30 mph is typical on most any day most of the time. 50 mph is not too unusual. Berming the northwest side, strategic planting, stone walls, snow accumulation, etc all lift the wind up over the house and let you stay warmer. Also keep the wind off of windows using baffles and orientation.

By the way, get good studded deep grooved snow tires and keep them fully inflated no matter what or how you drive.

Cheers

-Walter
Sugar Mountain Farm
in the mountains of Vermont
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/blog/
http://NoNAIS.org

[e.alleg]

"By the way, get good studded deep grooved snow tires and keep them fully inflated no matter what or how you drive."

Good advice, I don't have 4 wheel drive just a FWD minivan and with studded snows it gets better traction on icy roads than it does on a rainy day and is much better in the snow than my 4x4 pickup was with all season tires on it. If you move to Tug Hill then a snowmobile is a must, they won't let you live there without one. lol. I have a friend who lived up in that area near Canada, it was -20 as the high temp for a few weeks some years back, he gave up and moved 300 miles south.

[ET1 SS]

Originally Posted by highlands

I disagree with the heated drive, etc. That is a total waste of energy. Instead just let the snow build up and drive/walk on top of it. That is what we've always done and what has been traditionally done around here. The layer packs down hard and makes an excellent driveway and safe, non-slip walking surface for much of the year - you know, the time called winter that goes from October to April, sometimes longer.

I know guys here who have heated driveways and love them.

I do not.

Our driveway is packed snow/ice with a couple foot bank on either side.

Mud room and breezeways are a must to catch snow, mud and heat.

I agree.

Many paned windows are a must. I like 4 or more panes of glass. I've built some windows with six and when it gets to be -45°F they have no frost on the inside. At that temp the 4 pane windows get a little inside.

You made your own 4 pane windows?

We got triple-pane argon windows for fairly cheap.

Thick insulated walls are important. I like to put thermal mass on the inside as we are doing with our new house. The new house is built of stone and concrete including the roof. It has tremendous thermal mass so it stores the heat for a long time without the addition of more. My goal is a self heating house and we're very close.

What R-value are you going for?

Ours should be close to R-40

[highlands]

Originally Posted by ET1 SS

You made your own 4 pane windows?

Yes. It's pretty easy. Glass-film-film-glass. The six pane windows have two more layers of film. I have also done it using plexiglass instead of glass on the outside but that scratches up too easily. I scored 66 huge single pane windows for $5 each salvage. That is what we're using for the glass and frame components. Two of them are separated by 1.5" of air broken by film on a wooden cedar frame to break the thermal gap. See here:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/2007/01...y-cottage.html

I've had similar windows running for 16 years now in our old farm house and they've done great even at extremely low temperatures.

The argon's a nice idea, I have it in my two double hung windows that I didn't build, but expensive and it eventually is lost to the atmosphere. It also does not give as much insulative value as the multiple layers of film. You can't see the film unless you look extremely closely in the right light.

I build them because I can build better and less expensive. If I were to buy the six big windows we have then they would cost more than we have spent on construction for the entire tiny cottage. I got quotes, $7,200. Ouch.

What R-value are you going for? (in the walls)

For exposed walls R-48 but that is deceptively low. In reality the effect is much better. Outside the insulation there will be 6" of stone which buffers the insulation from the environment. On the inside there is another 8" to 12" of concrete and stone buffering the house temperature. Currently our tiny cottage has 84,000 lbs of thermal mass of concrete and stone inside the insulation envelope. When we're finished it will be about 100,000 lbs of thermal mass inside the insulation envelope. The envelope is continuous, broken only by the door, windows, chimney and buried utilities. Having the large thermal mass on both sides of the insulation makes it far more stable.

For bermed walls the insulation is only R-24 plus the thermal mass on each side. One does not need as much insulation on bermed walls because the soil temperature never drops below 45°F whereas the air temperature around here drops to -45°F, often for long periods below -20°F during the day. Due to our deep snows we only get about 3" of frost penetration in the soil. By the way, soil isn't a great insulator as some people miss-think. Rather it is thermal mass. Snow on the other hand is a great insulator.

With the way we're doing it there is no thermal bridging across the insulation layer, unlike with studs in conventional stick built houses which are standard. This is very important and greatly improves the performance of the wall as a whole. R-40 on a stick built wall with conventional studs is just the insulative value at the best point. The studs drop that considerably. I've watched the frost creep in through the walls along studs and nails in the winter when the temperature was -45°F. You can break the thermal bridge in stick building to a degree by using offset studs but it still isn't as good.

[ET1 SS]

highlands -

Sounds good.

Folks have really got to pay attention to thermal-bridging, it would get a guy if you had any in your house.

It is a common ailment among stick-built housing.