pipe busted under frozen ground??

[dk_40207]

Posting for Dh. We have a water pipe for the hose out by the barn. It is set in concrete and extends approx 2 1/2 ft out of the concrete. Apparently it busted somewhere under the ground...water is coming out of the ground and you can hear it running. The ground is frozen solid....and the faucet still works(though with less pressure)....
What do we do? The ground is frozen, so we can't dig..but the water meter is going round and round!
Help.
UPDATE: Okay..found the leak. There is about 1 ft of concrete then it is gravel all the way down below the elbow(about 2 1/2ft or so)...the leak is in the elbow. Question: Should he pack it back in gravel when he is done, or use something else to help prevent this from happening again?

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

shut it off , if you don't have a valve it is time to put one in
wait till spring and happy digging


the imediate way to dig is a backhoe that is how we fix frozen water mains here in wis

when you fix it put it in deaper or put som insulation board over it before backfilling
if you don't use the hose by the barn much in the winter install a drain valve at the source and drain the line and blow out with an air compressor

[caberjim]

Isn't there a cutoff valve at the other end? Maybe closer to the house or well? Where does the pipe go back to?

Otherwise, you are going to have to dig. A digging bar will get thru frozen ground with some effort. Start where the water is coming up.

Good luck.

[retire2$]

First thing would be to check to see if there is a shut off valve to the pipe that feeds the faucet. If there is no shut off for the pipe, shut all the water off. Note: sometimes it is easier to shut off the electric to the pump (if you have a well) than to try and shut off an old valve. Take note of what you will need to install a shut off on the line and make a trip to the hardware store. After the ground thaws repair or install a new line.

[gccrook]

OK. Since you said "water meter", we are going to assume you have rural or city water, and not a well. You can shut off the water at the meter until you find the shutoff valve for the aforementioned pipe. If the aforementioned pipe has no shutoff valve, it really should. Fixing will have to wait until spring.

[dk_40207]

okay..posting for dh again. There is no shut off valve. There is one shut off valve on the property..but it only shuts off house water. This pipe appears to be installed directly from the main at the road(county water).
So, note taken..install shut off valve come spring...in the mean time...we are gonna run up some kind of water bill!...can't really afford that. I guess we could shut off water to the whole house and haul water for the rest of winter. Hate to do that, though....
Suggestions welcomed. adding: DH is takinga pick ax to it right now...fingers crossed

[Micahn]

You can shut off the whole system there at the meter to get it stopped. Then like was said find the pipe and install a valve for now, Or find where it is broken and cap it off. Sure it will be hard digging in frozen ground but some times you just have to do what you got to do.
If the water has been running at the break for a while it should be sort of easy to dig down and cap it. The running water might have thawed it enough to at least get that done.

[dk_40207]

Yep, that's what we're doing. It's not so much the frozen ground(because like you said, the water had helped with that), the folks who installed it set it in concrete....that's gonna be the pain.
Thanks all!

[Bret]

Originally Posted by dk_40207

Yep, that's what we're doing. It's not so much the frozen ground(because like you said, the water had helped with that), the folks who installed it set it in concrete....that's gonna be the pain.
Thanks all!

Do you have the bleeder stopped yet? I cut a hole in my barn floor to install a hydrant. Before I could cement the hole over, a ground hog dug down through the hole. I filled the hole and packed the dirt back in and used a thin layer of concrete to level to the floor, in case I ever needed to get through it. The ground hog came back up during the night causing me to do the job again the next day.

This will not help you but maybe give you a laugh when you need it right now. Get a backhoe to dig and fix quick. It's too cold to work with a shovel. Good luck.

[Jennifer L.]

If you can't get down to the break quite soon, get a backhoe in and have them do it. Then you can have them tear out the concrete as well and redo it with dirt or gravel. That will get everything back for you and you'll still have your outside water.

Can't the county shut it off at the main by the road? I'm not familiar with town water systems but I would think their must be a shut off out there for it that won't affect your house water.

Good luck. Water problems are a pain any time of the year but are the pits in wintertime.

Jennifer

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by dk_40207

okay..posting for dh again. There is no shut off valve. There is one shut off valve on the property..but it only shuts off house water. This pipe appears to be installed directly from the main at the road(county water).
So, note taken..install shut off valve come spring...in the mean time...we are gonna run up some kind of water bill!...can't really afford that. I guess we could shut off water to the whole house and haul water for the rest of winter. Hate to do that, though....
Suggestions welcomed. adding: DH is takinga pick ax to it right now...fingers crossed

Is the meter at the main, or at your house?

[Rocky Fields]

Hey.

Since you have metered water, call the water dept. emergency number. Sometimes there is a shutoff deep in the ground that has to be found with a metal detector and turned with a long rod. They have records that will help pinpoint the shutoff if it was legally installed. Usually there is a round metal cap at ground surface.

[boonieman]

I had a similar situation. Unfortunately, you'll have to dig it up as DH is doing. If it's plastic pipe, screw a bolt into the end of it, and put hose clamps on it. If it's metal, use rubber, like an inner tube, put it over the end and hose clamp it. Although you didn't do it, never run a pipe up thru concrete. Put a larger pipe in the concrete, and run your hose up inside the bigger pipe to allow for expansion and ground heave. Best wishes, and hope you get in temporarily fixed until the thaw.

Just as future referance to people reading this. I friend of mine had this pronblem before in the winter. He rented a jack hamer for 24 hours alot of work slow proces at first but it worked. once you get part of the hole down below the frozen area it goes fast. You can just work the hole with a pick and it brakes in big chunks!!

[65284]

Originally Posted by dk_40207

This pipe appears to be installed directly from the main at the road(county water).

If the pipe was connected directly to the main at the road your meter wouldn't be spinning.

Is the pipe at the barn hooked to a freeze proof self draining faucet, was the hose disconnected and drained? If it is a freeze proof type faucet and the hose was properly drained I hate to sound a discouraging note but the break could be anywhere along the pipe and simply following the path of the pipe through the ground and coming up where the pipe rises out of the ground.

If you know where enters the house and connects at the road, and the meter should be at or close to one or the other, you may be able to determine where the pipe is. If you can determine this, then go to the the barn spigot and try to eyeball the most logical route from there back to the house supply line and you may be able to figure where it is branched off.

If it's broken someplace other than close to the barn it may be simpler to try and find and block it off where it comes off the house supply line, if not you will have to start digging at one end and dig until you find the break.

If the ground isn't covered with ice/snow it's sometimes possible to see where the pipe was laid. When the ground is visible I can still plainly see the slight depression where our water lines were put in 20 years ago.

You could always fill the bathtub and some clean buckets, large pots, pans etc. and then shut off at the meter, then turn it on/off again as needed when you have to refill everything. Not a long term solution I know, but you might be able to get by for a while like that.

Either way I don't envy you the task ahead, good luck.

[dk_40207]

bump. I updated the first post up there w/ a new question. Shoulda just done it here...

[Jennifer L.]

Good going. If you know it broke because of freezing then I would put it back together just as it is and insulate the heck out of the ground around the hydrant with hay bales to keep it from happening again, then fix it permanently in the spring. Don't spare the hay, and make a circle a good four or five feet out, making sure the concrete is covered right up to the hydrant pipe. Use two layers of bales to make sure things are well covered. You could also put a heating cable around the pipe, but the problem is no doubt the concrete block so covering it with hay should take care of that.

Will be interested to hear what others say.

Jennifer

[dk_40207]

Good idea, Jennifer...didn't think of that! We just thought it was weird for it to bust so far below the frost line.

[gccrook]

Mine busted at the elbow, but it was a plastic elbow . You do nee to pack it in gravel aat the lowest level, so the water will drain out of the hydrant. Above that, it should have some sand or other somewhat porous material, then dirt for the last 12 or so inches. It can't hurt to put hay bales around the top to insulate, but the hydrant should be far enough into the ground to not freeze. The concrete was intended to stabilize the hydrant so that it would not move too much whne used, and break the elbow.

[rambler]

Any connection to a community water supply is going to have a main shutoff. You could not legally have the barn pipe hooked up to the supply pipe as you stated. All water will go through the meter with a valve right before (or sometimes right after) the meter, and from there water pipe can run anywhere.

If the water is hooked up as you said, you have some issues there.

You should always have a way to shut the water off.

--->Paul