A Big WHAT IF

[Marla in WYO]

I was going to post this under Alternative Energy, but on further thought decided it would probably apply to all of us.

I also know how unlikely this may seem, but would just like to see where this thought that kept me up all night might go. So, please, no naysayers. Just run with the possibility, OK?

What if American citizens were able to eliminate their need for oil? What if a good majority of us could find ways to make our own electricity and fuel our vehicles and grow our own food even without government incentives and laws?

What would the major corporations (oil and food) and our government do to try to stop it? Or how would they try to adapt to our independence?

I don't post often. Love to read all the tales and ideas and thoughts. But sometimes I just need some input on some of the weird thoughts that keep me up at night.

Thanks in advance for all input (Please reread paragraph 2 )

Marla (still dreaming in Wyoming)

[hmsteader71]

Marla, my dh and I and a friend and her dh have all wondered this too. We want to be as completely independent from the government as we can be. I'm not really sure on the oil but I would think that if the Amish can get by then we should be able to also.
My personal feelings are this: I think eventually that the government is going to implement martial law and pretty much try to dictate how we run our lives. That's why I believe it is very important that we be as independent as we can so that we don't fall into their trap when it happens. I am all for fueling our vehicles and growing our own food and living off the land. Hope you get more responses that are positive.

[jd4020]

Often thought about this myself. It seems, (to me anyway,) that, the neferious "they" don't encourage people to do this. I've heard stories and such that many times something better has been devleoped, but the larger powers that be buy it up or shut it down so it won't take dollars away from what "they" want to push/sell. Heaven forbid that anyone might dig into their profits. Or if they did indeed discover something, how much would be lost as the need for working at it would be gone? No more cafeterias to feed the workiers, no more uniforms for those workers, hey, they found the answer so there's no need for these anymore. kwim?
I feel this on a gut level about the food I raise. (no pun intended) Mind you I only raise garden and meat for our own family use, I don't sell it to others. But I feel that every ounce I raise myself, digs into the retail food chains' pockets. Maybe they don't care at all, but I think they do. They want to make money and keep their stockholders happy.
I've often wondered if it would be possible to "disengage" from the larger society. No NOT a commune. Although I don't mind sharing what I have, I don't want to be commanded by others rules that whatever I have is everyone elses' as well. Wouldn't be a good candidate for that way of living, nor could I live in some mcmansion suburb that forbids clothelines and demands that one keeps their grass cut to a certain height. But choosing to live in a different manner and not be persistantly hounded about my choice, to not be on the grid, or able to have an outhouse, etc. without all the incessant (sp?) permits and certifications that "they" seem to think is neccessary.
In reality, I think there would be those who are slovenly in their habits and do things to make it bad for everyone else, you know, those who leave their trash laying about, don't care for their children or their animals properly, don't build safely and properly to begin with, that in fact bring about the very requirements for permits, certifications, laws that others think we need to keep ourselves safe from ourselves.
I see nothing wrong in living in a community that allows back yard husbandry, gardens and the like. I would work hard to keep my animals areas clean and my compost pile from stenching but, I would expect my neighbor to do the same. Not everyone would do this, but they would take advantage of the local farmers market; for I might not grow the same things as you. I would like to see more uses of horses, with a thriving livery stable and blacksmith in town. A butcher shop for an outlet for excess meat animals. Not everyone will want to raise their own food animals. A thriving bakery on the corner. Compost piles in yards to feed the flower, herb and garden beds. These would be well managed to avoid stench and problem insects. If not in ones' own yard, then perhaps a designated area on the edge of town for composting and then people could come get what they needed. Yes, I think it could be done. A carpenter working here in their garage, basket weavers, cloth weavers, sewers and tailors all about town, trading their wares and skills. Helping and serving one another, gathering together to watch out for one another and working together to keep the town clean and tidy. Yes there could/might be a money system, but right alongside that a thriving bartering system. People could/would take it upon themselves to upkeep the roads, and other public needs. Why not? What about work crews for particular needs? The national concern of obesity might be addressed if there were more manual labor available. And what about a center to make needs known? somewhat like the freecycle groups. I so enjoy being a member in my county of this group, I have been able to contribute to others needs and I feel good about that. Yes there are those who abuse this and that is sad, but being humans, this is a reality.
Well, it is interesting to let the mind wander down this path and I'm sure towns and groups of people have started out with these ideals. Some have succeeded and others have failed I'm sure.
Just my thoughts.

[Marla in WYO]

Thanks, messianic5.

Nothing like no response to make a person feel kinda dumb. Just to clarify, I'm not just looking for 'positive' responses - I'm sure there would/will be some fierce opposition to our (American citizens) doing for ourselves. What I hope to not here is "that will never happen".

This is some of what I've come up with so far:

We are already being tracked on what kind of vehicles we drive (though the DMVs).

Our purchases (at least on credit and debit cards and probably even checks and with the use of those 'savings cards') are already being tracked, so they (no I'm really not paranoid) can determine which of us are woking hardest at self sufficiency. They know what we eat, how much fuel we buy, how much and what types of personal protection (guns and ammo) we buy and pretty much what ever we do with most of our money.

If we could make our own fuel at home (electricty, biodiesel, homemade gasoline, whatever) they will need to tax us in some other way to pay for road repairs, etc. How might they try to do this? The oil companies won't make anymore record profits. What would they do then?

If they notice more and more people not buying food from the grocery stores or WalMart, the food conglomerates will start loosing money. Will we eventually be bombarded with information on the dangers of growing your own food, or preserving food. And if that doesn't work, what else might they try to keep their customers. Maybe mandatory airial spraying 'to eleminite the threat of ____"?

If enough of us build our homes to make use of solar or wind or hydro power, the power companies will start to loose their 'meager' profits. How might they try to adjust their business (or tactics)?

What kind of pressure will these major corporations put on 'our' politicians? How will 'our' politicians react?

These are the kind of responses/thoughts I'm looking for.

Hoping to hear from others.

Thanks,
Marla in Wyoming

[ma1bob]

This is a daily discussion here on the farm. Could we survive if needed by going completely off the grid. Yes with time.

We have a natural gas well here on the farm. That takes care of heating and cooking.

10 acres of land for growing our own fruit and veggies. We have chickens, ducks, geese, and dairy goats. An occasion pig and cow have stayed here. They are now residing in the freezer. Electricity could be handled with a combination of solar panels and wind-power. Still too pricey for us to purchase and set them up. Working on that tho.

Now comes the tricky part. Gas for the vehicles. While we drive as little as possible to conserve costs. We still need to get around. I would love an all electric car or when technology finnally gets hydrogen affordable. That is the way to go.

The President is requesting 300 billion over the next few years for the war in Iraq. If we took that 300 Billion and used it to drive the industries to switch to solar, wind and other cost effective energy items. We can drop our dependance on foriegn and most US oil.

Example: All homes be retrofitted with solar panels. Flourecent lighting only. No incandecent bulbs. All areas that can sustain windmills be utilized for electricity generation. Vehicles will be made to run on either deisel, electric or hydrogen. No gasoline engines. End government subsidies to farmers for not growing crops. The days of empty fields need to end.

These are just my opinions. Milage may vary.

Cheers

Bob

[moopups]

I don't believe we will ever get independent of government interference. Secondly, how would the city people find space to raise garden, have livestock, ect? There is not enough fruitful land to go around.

The capturing of the tides motion is one possibility, all of it is wasted right now. Solar and wind is also going to be used more in the future. Most vehicles will be converted to electrical powered.

[jd4020]

Along those lines ma1bob, why not design homes to make maximum use of the sunlight than depend so much on the lightbulb thing? One could also redesign the existing home as well, with skylights etc. Still use the most cost effective bulbs, but just make better use of our daylight hours.

[tinknal]

I believe that eventually (as soon as it looks profitable) that big oil will diversify into alternative energy sources. The tobacco companys have done the same thing already. (not with energy)

[Triffin]

You also have to look at the tax angle ..

If we all could generate our own electricity
and had electric vehicles; how would the feds tax you ??

Tax on transportation fuels is huge dollars ..
The govenment won't be giving that up very easily ..

Try putting home heating oil in your diesel vehicle
and see what sort of fines you'll be liable for if caught

Triff ..

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by moopups

I don't believe we will ever get independent of government interference. Secondly, how would the city people find space to raise garden, have livestock, ect? There is not enough fruitful land to go around..

If this is true how are people getting fed now?

[swampgirl]

Discussions such as this "What if.." go on all the time around our house. Guess that's why we are trying to be more self-reliant. I drive a hybrid car, but it still uses some gas; but could ride a bicycle to nearest town if need be.
Just can't seem to get "prepped" on everything. We need to study the Amish ways more.

[Marla in WYO]

moopups & tinknal

Growing our own food is not the only way to get better food. What if city people were to make considerably more use of farmers markets? Would city governments be persuaded by the food companies to more tightly regulate farmers markets?

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by Marla in WYO

moopups & tinknal

Growing our own food is not the only way to get better food. What if city people were to make considerably more use of farmers markets? Would city governments be persuaded by the food companies to more tightly regulate farmers markets?

Sadly, they don't need to. They have gradually trained the population to eat less flavorfull and more highly processed foods down through the generations. now all they have to do is say "this is what the consumer wants".

[Marla in WYO]

tinknal

Not trying to flame or anything, but that's the naysaying I was hoping to avoid.

WHAT IF city people did discover the benifits of really good nutritious food? What would or could the 'powers that be' do to maintain their control and profit?

I'm kinda seeing this as a possible book - not that I have the stick-to-it-ivness to write a book. But what is the possible future if people in this country (and elsewhere) wake up and figure out just how badly we're being treated (poisoned, tricked, manipulated, ignored in democracy, used as guinea pigs, and so on and so on)? Could it cause a second American Revolution? Or a world revolution? What tactics might be used on either side?

[sgl42]

re: fuel
my understanding is, if you make your own biodeisel, and put it in your car and drive on the public highways, you still legally owe the fuel tax. if they catch you, i'm sure there's a fine. if large numbers of people started doing it, i'm sure they'd create a program to crack down on it. so exxon might suffer slightly, but the politicians wouldn't.

re: food
most people are lazy, and that's unlikely to change. so few people are going to grow their own food.

and those that do, are likely to buy their seeds from the main seed-sellers, which sell hybrid seeds, so you'll have to buy new seeds every year. and there's been consolidation in the seed industry, so there's really only a couple companies that control most of the market.

and of course we have NAIS coming up too. another way to control the food supply.

and agribusiness is playing with the 'organic' definition, to taylor it to their needs, not the consumer's needs. make it really expensive to get 'certified', and only large corps can afford it.

around here (in tx), the folks at the local farmer's market tell me that it's really hard to get agriculture tax status unless you have animals. ie, just growing veggies and selling at the farmer's market doesn't cut it. taxes are another way to control people.

so, my view is most of the mechanisms of control are already in place. if too many people start 'escaping' the system, i'm sure they'll create new rules, taxes, etc, unless/until the population rebels.

but, keeping a low profile, growing your own veggies with heirloom seeds, reducing your energy consumption (less driving, well insulated house, etc), are about the best that can be done right now.

--sgl

[Trixie]

I decided to look at the canning jars at the grocery store yesterday, thinking they might be a good price because of the season. The price for quart jars, with lids, was $11!! The thought flitted through they might carry the jars, but if they were going to sell you something to allow you to bypass their foodstuffs, they were going to charge you plenty for it.

The ideas are great

Although I already see some problems for me, such as

<<<<<<<<<<<<I think there would be those who are slovenly in their habits and do things to make it bad for everyone else, you know, those who leave their trash laying about, don't care for their children or their animals properly, don't build safely and properly to begin with, that in fact bring about the very requirements for permits, certifications, laws that others think we need to keep ourselves safe from ourselves.

______________________________________

<<<<<<<<The national concern of obesity might be addressed if there were more manual labor available.>>>>>>>

--______________________________________

<<<<<<<The days of empty fields need to end.>>>>>>>

____________________________________________


<<<<<
Quote:
Originally Posted by moopups
I don't believe we will ever get independent of government interference. Secondly, how would the city people find space to raise garden, have livestock, ect? There is not enough fruitful land to go around..

If this is true how are people getting fed now?>>>>>>>>
__________________________________________________ ____
Since we know they are being fed by people who work large amounts of land. The response would seem to advocate the taking of very large pieces to make small pieces for some who don't have it.

The idea is wonderful - but is self-sufficiency - but with someone else deciding how we go about it - no different than what we have now?

To me self-sufficiency is growing food, producing energy - but it is also - being SELF-sufficient. That means freedom and it doesn't mean one size fits all.

I realize everyone is just thinking it would be great, peaceful, satisfying - but sooner or later, and it seems sooner already - someone is going to decide that the neighbor isn't quite doing things right and we need some regulations.

It is no longer SELF-sufficent - just sufficient.

[Marla in WYO]

jd4020 gave ideas for communities sticking together and working things out. That's great! What if more and more small communities started working this way? What would 'our' goverment and the corporations that run it do to stop it? Might we see the US Military or the FBI attacking small communities? Calling them cults? Where would they stop? Would they? Or would we end up with a 'civil war' against our own military?

[tinknal]

Marla, we can all create a fantasy world (mine involves a cave and herds of woolly mamoth ) But if you want to discuss a real world scenario you need to speak in terms of reality.

[Marla in WYO]

Democracy was once someones 'fantasy' (some think it still is).

Thanks everyone for you thoughts. Living alone in a very conservative (and seemingly closed-minded) town makes it hard to discuss any fantasies or (it seems) new ideas of any kind. I appreciate all those who shared in this 'fantasy' today.

Signing off for today. Gotta let the calling card rest for awhile.

[MWG]

America will never be oil free. Even if we all used horses for transportation, we will always use plastic. Plastic is made from oil...