Farm pond

[Runestone]

We dug a pond late last fall in a low lying area near our outbuilding. The pond is about 20 x 30 x 5 ft deep in the middle. We actually need to expand the pond a bit more. I would like to dig the expanded area down to about 3 ft and fill that end with cat tails, and other wetland grasses. The banks of the existing pond are very heavy clay and I want to make the pond usable for the dogs to swim and perhaps attract some wild ducks. Here's a picture of the 'not yet finished' project



This was 2 days after the digging was finished. Does anyone have any ideas to how the banks should be stabilized? I hope to have the backhoe operator back in the late spring (more likely early summer when it dries out!) to help taper the banks. We do have access to fairly cheap rock (hurray for the Canadian shield!)
Any suggestions would be appreciated. BTW, we will probably have a solar pump hooked up to circulate the water so your thoughts on that would be appreciated as well.
Thanks

[Maura]

You need a deeper pond or your fish will die.

We have the same trouble with clay. Before you dump sand, rock or gravel, ask a county agent if it will do any good. Clay is known to eat such.

Collect seed from the marsh plants that grow in your area and scatter them around the pond's edge. A few should take hold. If not, try again the following year. Some plants need more organic matter than others. You may have to dig a shallow area next to the pond and fill it with a suitable growing medium to get your plants started.

[botebum]

We'll be digging a pond on our property eventually and intend to take advantage of the state's free assistance on engineering. Is that not available in your location? I don't want to sound too critical but it looks like you would benefit from some engineering help. A working pond is more than a hole with water and plants. It's an ecosystem that must 'work' to prosper and thrive.

Doug

[JasoninMN]

I would not plant cattails. The will take over most people are trying to get rid of them, not add them.

[elkhound]

first thing you need to do is stop..stop with what you doing and get a pond engineer.they usually are free in most areas.where are you at?most states have a soil conservation man that iwll help.i had a egineer help me with a existing pond.well they built it wrong.it will cost me alot to fix there mistakes.also never slop you ponds edge.you want them to be at least 12 to 18 inches deeop and have a straight edge going down to surface.this has somehting to do with less erosion of soil going into pond....if i am renbering the reason they gave me.thye didnt do this on my pond and it has filled in a good bit on the slopped sides.also you always want to have a overflow pipe or overflow waterway for spillage during flooding.there are alot of things to building a pond.read up and get some proffesional help.you will love your pond.i love mine and is a focal point on my property and also in dry times i am the only water for several miles and the deer come piling in.looks like cattle coming to a watering hole/and ducks....good luck.

[Runestone]

Okay, thanks for the input so far I'll try to address concerns about what we've done so far but it's difficult without you actually being able to see the entire property. As for pond engineers, I'm in Ontario where there once was more 'free' assistance from our gov't agencies but not anymore. I'm in a typical catch-22. I have farm property but don't actually qualify as a farm because I don't work the land myself. Therefore I don't qualify for any farm assistance programs which might include a pond engineer. I'm trying to work out the 'I am a farm but not a farm' situation through this year. Wish me luck!

The location of this pond was an area that already had some cattails growing and some other marshy plants so it was a natural 'pond' area that just needed some encouragement. It does have a spillway for overflow since the natural lay of the land allows for it and we enhanced it. There is also another natural drain area to the other side which you can't actually see. This pond, with the spillway, connects to yet another natural drainage area (which you can't see) which drains to yet another large natural pond which we hope to enhance. Sorry that I can't actually put all the pictures, etc. that you would need to see how this all connects together.

Maura, we aren't putting fish in the pond since there weren't any there in the first place. We do want to encourage the frogs that are in abundance in the area and hopefully the wild ducks. At some point, we might get some of our own ducks, but that remains to be seen. I do need to extend the pond into a shallower area and did think that's where I'd plant some marsh plants. So I like your idea about using the one area to encourage natural growth.


I hope my extra descriptions are helpful. And I'm still open to other suggestions on ways to improve what we've done so far. It's most definitely a 'work in progress'

[debra in ks]

I agree about not using cattails. I put them in my new pond 5 years ago and now I spend LOTS of time every year pulling them out. They will overun your pond in no time and they are buggers to get rid of. I'm actually going to drain my pond this spring just to so I can get in and clean them out. Cattails? Never again!

[fantasymaker]

LOL dont let the enginnering folks get ya down its hard to mess up a hole in the ground. Deeper bigger better is always good! .Most natural ponds have sides that slope. Just drag the lose dirt away so it dosent go right back in the same hole and and throw a lot of grass seed around the banks now while its still moist and cool. As for water plants remeberwhat cost ya $50 at the water nursery is free at your buddies pond.
One detail water less than 3 feet deep is a mosquito breeding ground and some fish will feed on the larva can ya buy a bucket of minnows or feeder goldfish each spring to put in there?

[RedTartan]

I agree with Fantasymaker. You can do this yourself. For Christmas I got a book called "The Self-Reliant Homestead" by Charles A. Sanders. It has a very detailed chapter on building your own pond. Perhaps you could check the library for the book?

Good luck,

RedTartan

[fishhead]

My experience with clay shows that the clay we have (yours may be different) is that it is stable and can take a 2:1 slope. The steeper you have the bank the less problems you will have with vegetation turning your pond into a marsh.

I agree avoid cattails.

I overwinter the fish on my farm in 4' of water with a small amount of continuous aeration.

If you want ducks I would suggest getting some amphipods locally and stock them in the pond. Most of the rest will fly in before you know it. If you have tree swallows I would put up some houses spaced 50' apart. I put up more than 50 houses on my dikes and it definitely reduces the bug problem until the young fledge and leave. If you have them locally finescale dace will work great for controlling mosquitoes and are very tough when it comes to surviving winter in shallow ponds.

Your best source of vegetation will be found locally. Just observe what grows nearby and in what soil.

Have fun with your new pond!

[elkhound]

one word of caution.....deeper is not always better.....sorry fantasymaker....i say this cause if a soil scientist looks at the soil maps for you specific area he mgith give you a heads up about what is under you or in your area.like my area...well it is very old volcanic activity....meaning cracks in the sub-soil.if you dig to deep you run the risk of hitting a seem and then all your water will run out of pond through a crack that you have exposed by digging deeper.my pond has a crack and no matter how much water comes in it .it gets pushed out by water pressure.once the pressure or weight of water gets to a certain point the waterstops going out the bottom.but htere are saloutions for this also.clean it out and put that beutiful gray looking mud back in bottom for a linner or even buy a plastic liner.but for me it is not cost effecient to do sch so i just live with my pond the way it is and enjoy it.you probably wont have the cracks in the earth like i have to deal with but you never know without a soils map.i made a mistake in some pond upgrades and it cause some damage to my dam that i am still getting fixed.also keep your slopes on dam gentle.mine are about 4 times steeper than they should be.also never let trees grow up on dam.if a ice or windstorm comes and the tres get toppled over it will caiuse the root ball to come out and up and pull huge amounts of soil from your dam....of course it depends on the size of the tree.but just a few words with my experience of dealing with a ----/pond that was not in any way constructed correctly.hope this helps you out.

[forestdweller]

Hey Runestone. Don't worry, you don't need an engineer to design your pond. It's pretty simple to have a nice pond if you follow a few simple rules. Make sure that you have a bank slope of at least 2:1 to prevent erosion of your banks. If you dig the centre of your pond deep enough, you can add cattails to it, as cattails generally will not grow in deep water, and if you are trying to encourage frogs, ducks and aquatic wildlife you will want some emergent cover such as cattails, pickerel weed, arrowhead, etc. around the edges of the pond. Leaving the pond with the clay substrate is fine. Organic debris and rotting plants will form after time anyway. You will want to grade the material on the banks back, so they are level and smooth, then put a bit of topsoil or dirt down, and then spread some grass seed to prevent erosion and sediments going into the water. The roots will also help stabilize the banks.

I know you said that you are not planning on adding any fish to the pond, but in the future if you DO decide to add fish, make sure that your pond is not connected to any natural water body, because you don't want to be adding non native or non-local fish to the exisiting ecosystem (it's actually against the law to have a fish pond connected to an existing watercourse for this reason). If you WANT fish in there, you can always get a minnow trap and put it in the swamp downstream and add those fish to your new pond, that way if anyescape, no harm will be done. Just make sure that your pond is deep enough so that they don't die in the winter (About 8 ft would be ideal).

Good minnows for your pond would be fathead minnows. They are a local fish species and they eat mosquito larvae. If you have any questions just ask. The company I work for specializes in this work.

Here's a pic of our pond in the spring...As you can see, we do have cattails, but I actually enjoy them and we have a pair of mallards that come every year to nest/feed in the pond. We have a ton of frogs and other aquatic critters, too. We keep the middle of the pond deep, so that the cattails can't overgrow the pond.

[moonwolf]

Originally Posted by newfieannie

Oh yes, I meant to also say fishhead has quite a bit of info on ponds and fish farming on the singletree thread. probably all you need to know.

this is true. we have some excellent resource people on HT like elkhound and Fishhead willing to share their expertise. I'd lsten to some of what they say and use that for your benefit.

[Runestone]

Thanks forestdweller! Your pond looks like what I had envisioned for my pond I'd love to have a couple of mallards! Since we did just dig the pond in the fall...at the last minute, I might add, I knew it was basically 'roughed in' and I know the fellow who did the digging will come back. He was good since we wanted the spillway to have a slope of 8"/10 ft" and he was BANG ON!! I even learned how to use a transet that day

Thanks everyone for your input. It's nice not to have to 'reinvent' the wheel

[fishhead]

The cattails in my smallest pond have started to reach out over water too deep by floating. As long as they remain attached to the part on the shore there isn't anything to stop them from completely covering the pond....except me.

Arrowheads are a nice well mannered plant if they are native to your area. Sweet flag is another. My geese loved the roots of the sweet flag and ate hundreds of feet of it. They would stand in place and jog to let the current expose the root.

One thing about emergent plants though and that is they will attract muskrats who will dig in your banks. It's not the end of the world though just a nuisance.

I would NOT allow trees to grow anywhere near the edge.

[Old John]

Hi Runestone, Fishhead & All,

Another great place to find Info on all sorts of Pond topics is Pond Boss.

Located at; http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

All about construction, Fish, Plants to use, Aeration..........
Lots of info.
Have Fun!
OBTW........Hail the Aesir & Vanir!
PM me.

[Daddymem]

NRCS manual on pond designing. HTH
http://www.in.nrcs.usda.gov/pdf%20files/PONDS.PDF

[Runestone]

Daddymem, & Old John, thanks for the links. I'll check them out.

Fishhead, I'm not sure arrowheads are native to my area, but that should be easy to find out. No, there won't be any trees around the pond since it's located on the edge of our hayfields (something I have more questions about - hayfields that is!).

I think on some of the steeper slopes, I will probably put some larger flat rocks, which we have in abundance close by. That, in combination with the plants should stablize the soil around the pond.

Thanks again everyone! Your help is very much appreciated.

[Maura]

If you really want cattails, you can try to put them in. They will not grow in clay. They need organic matter. We are trying to grow cattails around our pond and they do not like the heavy clay. They also will not grow in deep water, which is why they are found in ditches and the edges of lakes and ponds. Just as with the other marsh plants, you can create a spot for them that is not actually "in" the pond.

[cowgirlone]

Here is anothe link....http://aquanic.org/beginer/systems/farmpnd.htm

I raise freshwater shrimp in my farm pond.