Question about water well pump electric

[FarmboyBill]

Got a well drilled some 300ft from the house. Uphill all the way. My Boy just said that there wont be sufficent electric there to run the pump, and that insufficent electric is more harmful to a pump than an over abundance, He also said that if the pump had to shove it downhill even that distance that the pressure would be poor without a booster pump down here at the house, I said id get with the experts, and get back to him. So, what do you all think? I hate the idea of having 2 pumps, and my thought is, any water pressure is better than no water at all. I also have an old concrete tank that was sold as a septic tank but was always used as a cistern. BUT, unfortunatly, it was set flush with the ground. It has got heck knows what in it, and I would want to take the top off, drain it/pump it out, pressure wash it, maybe relime or repaint the sides with somthing. and floor, raise the sides say 2 ft, run a ramp up the side I access it with say 1ft of dirt, replace the top put a well pump on it with a tank for around the barn watering.

[boonieman]

You really didn't give enough info for specific answers, but in general your boy is correct in that low voltage to any motor is very hard on it and significantly shortens it's life. The voltage drop all depends on a lot of factors like the wire size you are planning on using, the distance, the motor horsepower, etc. But it can be done with proper wire size, etc. Best thing here is to get an electrican help you figure that part of it out. As far as pumping water 300 feet, there are plenty of wells around here that are 300 feet or better away from the house. Once you get the water up out of the ground, it doesn't take that much to move it horizontally. You'll get some friction loss thru the pipe, but it ought to be tolerable. The bigger the pipe, the less the friction loss. So maybe instead of 3/4" line, use 1" line.

[mtman]

if you have 100 amp service get a 1 horse pump 220 it will pump water a mile

[rambler]

You have no specifics....

I certainly believe that you don't have enough electric power out there. But, what do you have? You boy sounds right on tho, you will need 240v out there, and 15 amps or so I'll guess. Will take a pretty big cable to go 300 feet, #6 copper or #4 al would give you 20 amps of 240 out there. If you ever want to power something else (lights, heater, power tools...), a bigger wire is a lot cheaper now - consider it....

What kind of well is it, I assume deep well because that is all we have 'here'. Any deep well should be able to pressurize your whole system. You just need to size the pump to the task.

You say the well is uphill - I'm sure you meant the well is below the house? How much is the rise? Every foot of rise needs about 1/2 lb of pressure, so if the house is 30 feet higher, the pump would need to handle an extra 15 lbs of pressure - typically not a problem. Just size the pump with these needs in mind.

There are times one needs a second, booster pump, but not so often.

In short:

You need a good power cable out there; bet you kid is right on the wire.

Often times a single pump can be done to pressurize everything, but we would need to know more before we can guess at that. I'd think you can get one pump to work everything.

--->Paul

[TnAndy]

Gould pumps say you can run a 1.5hp pump with #10 wire a max of 480'.

You give 300' to the well head, but don't say how far down in the well you plan to put the pump ( what is your water level now....and what is the well gallon-per-minute rating ?).

Assuming you're going down a couple hundred feet with the pump, you would be at the end of that spec FOR a 1.5hp pump.....which is a HOSS of a pump.

Personally, I wouldn't put over a 3/4 or 1 hp at the very most for a typical residential service.....unless you have some exceptional water needs, like a dairy or something where you do some serious washing out, then those pumps would do you just fine.

IF in doubt, run #8 to the well head, and #10 down the well to the pump.

Also, 1" pipe would be a minimum.....and you might want to consider 1 1/4".

But a submersible pump should handle your pumping needs without a booster pump. All you woud do is increase the well pump slightly ( like the next 1/4 or 1/2hp size, and increase the wire size accordingly ) IF that was necessary.

Unless your pump depth is REALLY deep, like over 300', this whole thing won't even be a tough deal.

[tiogacounty]

In this area wells range from 5-800 ft. deep. They are always run with one submersible 240 volt pump and a Aqua-Trol style bladder pressure tank. The well driller should be real familair with what works, and what size pipe and wire needs to be run. Remember well depth has nothing to do with static level. In my case the well is 505' deep but there is a 340' column of water in it. The static runs around 165'.

[fantasymaker]

a sneaky trick for extra capacity is to use two or more wires ,had a friend who burned up a pump they said the #12 wire was to small that he would have to pull it out and replace with #10 he just bought ANOTHER run of #12 and used both the old and new and now everything works great!

BIGGER PIPE MAKES A HUGE DIFFERENCE! at the cost of plastic pipe today and with your run (aboutl ike mine) Id run 1 1/4 min proably 1 1/2 and for myself I like water to work well when it works so I ran 2 inch .

[rambler]

Originally Posted by fantasymaker

a sneaky trick for extra capacity is to use two or more wires ,had a friend who burned up a pump they said the #12 wire was to small that he would have to pull it out and replace with #10 he just bought ANOTHER run of #12 and used both the old and new and now everything works great!

Should be pointed out, that would need to be sneaky - it is illegal to do it that way, & sets up some wiring issues that aren't so good. Insurance, etc. will be real unhappy & inclined not to pay when they find such a situation.

--->Paul

[fantasymaker]

Originally Posted by rambler

Should be pointed out, that would need to be sneaky - it is illegal to do it that way, & sets up some wiring issues that aren't so good. Insurance, etc. will be real unhappy & inclined not to pay when they find such a situation.

--->Paul

ARRRRGHHH! Dont tell met that! Tell me what the problem is??? Please? pretty please? pretty please with fudge icing on top???

[TnAndy]

Originally Posted by fantasymaker

a sneaky trick for extra capacity is to use two or more wires ,had a friend who burned up a pump they said the #12 wire was to small that he would have to pull it out and replace with #10 he just bought ANOTHER run of #12 and used both the old and new and now everything works great!

Don't know how 'sneaky' it is, but it's not an uncommon practice in the electrical biz.....called 'paralleling', and though generally done more on a main service entrance ( using a pair of smaller conductors rather than one larger one ), there is no prohibition in the NEC that I know of, as long as the wires are marked properly. There may be a local code that prohibits it.

I have a 400amp service for my shop with two pairs of 2/0 copper feeds rather than one set of 4/0. Have a feed down to my gate opener that is 900' from the panel at the house. Feed is 2 #6 for the hot side, and 1 # 6 for the neutral.

A pair of number 12 wires would actually have more capacity than a single #10. You just don't see it because MOST folks get the right size wire to start with.....one set of #10 being cheaper than 2 sets of #12......

IF the pump is a 3 wire pump, though ( and that's the only kind I would use on a submersible unless the depth is just REAL shallow ), you would need 3 sets of 12 wire......that third pair to carry the power from the capicitor in the pump control box.....you can't use the ground wire to carry any current, codewise.

[FarmboyBill]

The house is below the head of the well by around 30 to 50ft. The well hasnt been pumped out, so I dont know anything about its capability, I have 220 at the pole for the welder. I want to run underground wire as its in my hay field. Cant think of anything else I know enough to tell you

[fishhead]

Here's a wire sizing calculator.

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

I used a similar one to figure out the wire size to reach my furthest ponds (900').

I also pump 200 gpm that far in 3" pipe.

If you have pocket gophers like we do you had better enclose the wire in 1 1/2" or larger pipe. I ran $500 worth of wire and didn't even get it hooked up before those darn gophers cut the insulation. When I pulled it up there wasn't a piece more than 30' without bite marks. A very expensive lesson.

[Old Vet]

How far from the welder socket to the pump? if it is close you have enought power to run a pump. The welder socket must have a 40 amp cirkut to run a welder so that is enought to get power for any pump.

[fishhead]

Another possibility is to place your pump near the electric and suck the water to the pump provided you are talking about a shallow well (25' or less to the water after drawdown).

I've sucked water 400' from my pond to the pump with no trouble.

[TnAndy]

The 300' from the well to the house, since it is downhill, is going to make no difference in your pump pressure or flow as long as you use at least a 1" pipe so you don't have a pressure loss due to friction in too small a pipe.

You need to know the ballpark flow of the well and how deep you're putting the pump.

If your well has plenty of flow, like 10 or more gallons/min, then you won't have to put the pump very far down in the actual water.....maybe 30-40'. Bear in mind, that may STILL be quite deep, depending on how far from ground level to water level.

IF you have a low flow well, like 1-2 gal/min, then they should have drilled it fairly deep to give you plenty of reserve water storage......put the pump down 100' or more in the water so you don't 'out pump' your well.

You need to know the water use you want at the house ( typically, 5 gallons/min minimum.....6-8gal/min is fine for most houses )

Once you know THOSE two things, go to a pump calculator, like this site:

Goulds Pumps

Look under the spec for the 3 wire pumps....for example, the cheapest pump ( with the least number of stages ) will be one of the 5GS models. Look under the specs ( click the blue area of specs )......IF you have to go a fair distance down in the well, you'll want a pump with more stages.....look at the others.

Look at the 5GS07.....a 3/4hp pump. The chart shows this pump will produce about 6 gallons a minute at a constant 50 PSI when put down in a well 200'. That will do about any house.

Now, back up a page, look on down the first page to Wire Selection.


Under the 230v single phase section, 3/4 horse pump says #12 is good for 480', but since in the example above you have 300 to the well, and 200 down the well, you'd really need to step up to the next wire size, #10, which is good for 760'

No way you will need a booster pump in this situation....you just need to get the correct pump for down the well, the correct wire size to run it, and the correct pipe size to supply the house.

What I've given you is probably going to be pretty close.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

Just a note on the parallel wiring... This is a VERY unsafe way to do anything, even though it is common. I just replaced a wire at a house I'm remodeling built in the 1960's. The original electricians used "normal" 6-3 wire cable (number 6, three wire) for all but the last six feet of a kitchen range (50A). They set a box under the house and tied two number 10's (total combined capacity 60A) together for the rest of the run. It has worked fine over the years. The danger is that if one of the two wires gets broken/cut/loose, the entire load is on the remaining wire, which would be greater than it was designed for. The wire overheats, and POOF...a house fire!

PLEASE never parallel wire anything!

If you are running a long distance, say over 300 feet, you should use the next greater size than normal, so that there is no voltage drop. In other words, for a 20A circuit, normally a #12 wire, you should use #10 for a 300' run, #8 for a 600' run etc. Same works for water pressure....longer distance, larger pipe for the same pressure. As far as the pump, a deep well pump will work fine as long as your total rise (depth of pump in well plus total rise from well to house) is no greater than the max. listed on the pump. The difference between 110 (one hot and one neutral) and 220 (both hot) is mainly an efficiency issue. 220 is always more electrically efficient (takes less current for the same job). In the case of a pump, it may also enable it to pump water farther (check pump labels), of course at a higher cost. For your installation you should use a deep well pump, preferably 1 hp or larger, with #10 wire and at least inch and a half pipe. You should not experience any pressure loss. Also, the "bladder" pressure tank should be at the house, with a one way valve and a pressure control switch.
Hope this helps. Nathan

[FarmboyBill]

Originally Posted by Old Vet

How far from the welder socket to the pump? if it is close you have enought power to run a pump. The welder socket must have a 40 amp cirkut to run a welder so that is enought to get power for any pump.

is at the house

[fishhead]

What is the standing water depth? If it is within 20' or so you can use a shallow well centrifical pump.

At my farm the point is 60' down but the aquifer is under pressure and it sits at 11'. When the pump kicks on it drops to about 50'. I'm pumping 200 gpm.

[agmantoo]

fishhead, you must have a whale of a supply line at 200 GPM! What size spigots do you have?

[farminghandyman]

you have two distances, one the depth of the well, and the distance from the power,

my well is 280 foot deep and about 50 foot from electrical service, and runs on 10 gage wire at 240, a 1.5 hp pump I think,

any way, you will have to run electrical service to the pump location, my guess is you should use a #6 wire at the least, (larger is better) If using aluminum go larger,

for the normal pump amperage that should give you minimal voltage drop, then depending on the pump amperage, my guess is either a #12 or #10, to service the pump in the well, your well guy should be able to help you with a suggestion,

there could be a number of different ways to do the pressure,

if just irrigation you could use the cistern tank you speak of,
and let gravity do its thing,
but for the house the pump if set up correctly can run a pressure tank and provide the pressure by it self, with out using a booster pump,

the cistern would do more good,if up on the hill, as it would have about a half pound of pressure for ever foot of elevation,

one you know the amperage of the motor use voltage drop calculator to get an idea of the wire size needed.
a few listed bleow or do a net sreach and find more,

http://www.jhlarson.com/ind_tables/v...c_voltdrop.htm

http://nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

http://www.csgnetwork.com/wiresizecalc.html