restoring old pastures

[pcdreams]

I have been talking with our neighbors (who use to own our place).. and they can't recall the last time the pasture was fertilized..

So I was wondering when this is typically done.. in the fall or spring.

I had it hayed this year and they got 18 bales (not much) but guy said he though with fert he could get upward of 90..

Anyway I'm not sure what grasses are out there, got a conservation agent coming out to have a looksee.. I know theres lots of prickly pear as well as a bit of thistle and some sprouts to clean out..

I'm planning to ask her about other types of grasses etc... What we plan to do is run a few cattle/goats/horses/chicken.. Nothing large scale.. There are 3 fields (5 acres, 1 acre, 5 acres) Thought I might convert one to some kind of grain (1 acre) and leave the rest for pasture..

the other 10 acres is mostly wooded and will be building a house, orchard, garden there as well as converting the lower part of that to native grassland .

here are some pictures of what we're working with.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pcdream...7594170257786/

[jersey girl]

In NW Ohio, we fertilize in spring and fall. We had great success with using liquid fish
(Neptunes Harvest). We take first cutting hay off most of our pastures and fertilize
after cutting. We allow dairy cows on after about 2-3 weeks. As we rotate pastures, we sometimes fertilize mid summer and then spray them a final time in early mid fall.
We also overseed prior to last fertizing. Everyyear I try to overseed a few hundred pounds of seed to make up for any tore up by the cows. I seed orchard and timothy
and sometimes alice clover. The more you cut the pasture the sooner you'll get rid of the weeds.

[tinknal]

Call your local extension agent and ask for a soil test (they are usually cheap or free). That will tell you what your soil needs.

[agmantoo]

I viewed all the pics and was rather impressed. Obviously someone has harvested the merchantible timber in the not tooo distant past. The fields are nice and afford a lot of potential. The photos were IMO taken in June or there abouts. To put the fields into production, a good soil sample is needed. Get the PH correct (looks OK in the pics) and fertilize feed the grasses that are there after a thorough brushhogging. I fertilize twice per year. In the fall I apply a balanced fertilizer for top and root growth and in the spring I apply nitrogen for top(forage) growth. The animals will take are of the undergrowth in the cutover areas. With a good perimeter fences and with some cross fencing to establish paddocks for rotational grazing you can carry a good number of livestock. Nice place!

[Wildwood Flower]

We had some pretty bad pastures--full of weeds and hard as a rock. I convinced my husband to try Shaklee Basic H on them, using them at the same time as weed killer. We used 5 gallons for our 2 pastures (25 acres each). They will safely mix with anything else you are using.

The results were amazing. The pastures grew lush and green and stayed green even through a terrible drought. We had it hayed and the guy was amazed. (We don't irrigate here in Oklahoma.) Even after it was mowed it still kept growing lush and green. We were the only ones around with green pastures and we had shared the hay with the mower (in exchange for mowing) and he sold our bales for much more $$$.

The Basic H used to be sold as as soil conditioner, but I guess there wasn't much call for it for that purpose, so now you can just buy the Basic H (same product).

The product is completely biodegradable and safe around animals and humans. It is used as a safe household cleaner (be sure to save out about a quart of it for use in your home.)

The way it works is to make water wetter so that it soaks deep into the soil (3-4 feet, if I recall) and loosens the soil up. The grasses grow fast and seem to crowd out the weeds. You can apply it in the Fall (before the rains) or in the early Spring. Of course, re-applying it yearly gives best results, but not always necessary, depending on your climate, etc.

Best of all is the price: I am a member so we pay $127.45 for the 5 gallons. If you've looked into fertilizers you'll find how expensive they are. Plus, because they are an artificial chemical system they kind of set you up for having to use them year after year.

You can find Basic H at http://www.shaklee.com/product/BasicH It also comes in 30 gallon drums, but you wouldn't need that much.

Shaklee's home page: http://www.shaklee.com

[WindowOrMirror]

1. Frost seed in what you desire to have there next spring
2. Break up into smaller pastures with temporary fence and run a mix of grazers and browsers in there to eat every thing down... cycle livestock from pasture to pasture when the sward length is 2".
3. Do your soil tests summer towards fall
4. In the fall, lime or whatever to get the pH right. If you don't get this right, it won't matter what else you do.
5. Repeat the above cycle for year 2
6. In fall of year 2, fertilize after the results of a second soil test

That's just my opinion... I could be wrong

R

[ceresone]

Dose'nt anyone have to use lime in the fall? just asking--here we do

[WindowOrMirror]

we sure do

[rambler]

Lime is a non-issue in my area, most ground is over 6.8 ph around here. However, if your soil is below 6, lime is the most important thing you can do to improve soils. Lime will 'act' for a long time, and take several months before it has an effect. There are several types of lime, some react quickly but then disappear quickly, other take 6 months to do anything, but will last for 5 years or so. Anyhow, if ph is too low, plants are not able to take up other nutrients even if they are available.

So ph/ lime test is most important.

If the land is hayed, you will need to add P & K. If grazed, probably less P & K will be needed. Soil test is the whay to find out where you are at now. Often times one applies up to 3 years worth of P & K at one time - sensitive sandy or shoreland soil might get you in trouble, but in general.....

Basic test is about $20 to give you all the ph, P, & K info, as well as other smaller info.

For N, you need to add 100 - 250 lbs of N for pure grass hay ground. Soil tests don't help much, Extension/ University charts will tell you what you need to add for your yeild goals. Often times split applications pay off best, but of course for small acres not easy to do. If grazing, you can count in manure as part of the N & reduce what you need, but it never aplies evenly so still need a fair amount.

If you can interseed clover, alfalfa, bird'sfoottrifoil, or other legume into your pastutre, once established (and if you treat your pastures nicely to keep these sensitive plants around) they will provide all the N you need. But they will consume a bit more P & K, so you need to keep up on that. They are also more sensitive to ph issues. But, sure a good way to go!

These legumes make weed control more difficult - no spray will work in a mixed grass/legume field. Also all but the birdsfoot do pose a bloating danger for some livestock, so yo need to manage for that.

So:

Get the ph right.

Get the P & K right.

Add N that you need for the year's crop.

Get the weeds dealt with, then consider adding a legume to help supply more forage, as well as take care of your N needs.

Rotate your pastures, giving them a month off now & then, or mowing for hay which helps rebuild the legumes & grasses while controling weeds.

Maintain your ph, P, & K levels with occational soil tests & applications - every 2-3 years perhaps?

--->Paul

[FarmerJeff]

Originally Posted by Wildwood Flower

We had some pretty bad pastures--full of weeds and hard as a rock. I convinced my husband to try Shaklee Basic H on them, using them at the same time as weed killer. We used 5 gallons for our 2 pastures (25 acres each). They will safely mix with anything else you are using.

The results were amazing. The pastures grew lush and green and stayed green even through a terrible drought. We had it hayed and the guy was amazed. (We don't irrigate here in Oklahoma.) Even after it was mowed it still kept growing lush and green. We were the only ones around with green pastures and we had shared the hay with the mower (in exchange for mowing) and he sold our bales for much more $$$.

The Basic H used to be sold as as soil conditioner, but I guess there wasn't much call for it for that purpose, so now you can just buy the Basic H (same product).

The product is completely biodegradable and safe around animals and humans. It is used as a safe household cleaner (be sure to save out about a quart of it for use in your home.)

The way it works is to make water wetter so that it soaks deep into the soil (3-4 feet, if I recall) and loosens the soil up. The grasses grow fast and seem to crowd out the weeds. You can apply it in the Fall (before the rains) or in the early Spring. Of course, re-applying it yearly gives best results, but not always necessary, depending on your climate, etc.

Best of all is the price: I am a member so we pay $127.45 for the 5 gallons. If you've looked into fertilizers you'll find how expensive they are. Plus, because they are an artificial chemical system they kind of set you up for having to use them year after year.

You can find Basic H at http://www.shaklee.com/product/BasicH It also comes in 30 gallon drums, but you wouldn't need that much.

Shaklee's home page: http://www.shaklee.com

How common is this practice?- a google search returns no info. Please elaborate more. Does this have any effect on facilitating soil drainage?

[rambler]

Originally Posted by FarmerJeff

How common is this practice?- a google search returns no info. Please elaborate more. Does this have any effect on facilitating soil drainage?

That is a rather controversial product. Based on MLM marketing & testamonials. Some believe in it, others are at the least skeptical.

Amsway has a similar product, with similar controversy.

I've never seen unbiased reports of it being a pert of a farm fertility program that adds much worth.

But then there are those who swear by it.

Below is a quote from the U of Wis/ Extension stating their findings on the product, & perhaps why it is no longer sold with the 'soil condioner' label any more.

I'll leae it at that, both sides of the issue, and everyone can decide for themselves.

--->Paul

============
Basic H
Company: Shaklee Corp., 1900 Powell Street, Emeryville, CA 94608
Ingredients: Linear alcohol alkoxylates, 28%
Claims: Helps plants absorb nutrients, improves yields, protein content, makes water wetter,
reduces runoff
Remarks: Nonionic wetting agent; now specifically disclaiming effects on yield, nutrient
release, or pesticide activity

Known Research: Sunderman (1978); Doersch (1979); Kelling (1980); Kelling et al. (1980);
Hunter and Baker (1981); Lawless et al. (1981); Stone (1981); Wolkowski
et al. (1983); Penas (1983); Sunderman (1983); Wolkowski et al. (1985a);
Rehm and Fenster (1986); Kniep et al. (1987); Murdock (undated)

[pcdreams]

Originally Posted by agmantoo

I viewed all the pics and was rather impressed. Obviously someone has harvested the merchantible timber in the not tooo distant past. The fields are nice and afford a lot of potential. The photos were IMO taken in June or there abouts. To put the fields into production, a good soil sample is needed. Get the PH correct (looks OK in the pics) and fertilize feed the grasses that are there after a thorough brushhogging. I fertilize twice per year. In the fall I apply a balanced fertilizer for top and root growth and in the spring I apply nitrogen for top(forage) growth. The animals will take are of the undergrowth in the cutover areas. With a good perimeter fences and with some cross fencing to establish paddocks for rotational grazing you can carry a good number of livestock. Nice place!

Thanks.. We like it.. The folks that use to own it had a large farm (300 acres) that they split up and sold.. Our neighbor across the road bought some 100+ acres and the one behind bough the most of the rest.. Luckly they seem to be nice.. One is a dairy farmer and the other a wildlife buff (honestly I don' t know if they do any farming or what). Been over a few times to help out with projects and even brought us a deer over the weekend. Look foward to the time when we get to move there.

Thank you guy for the advice.. I know so very little about this type of thing but will be doing the soil test soon (before the ground freezes).

One more question... We are planning on planting trees along the fence, and I was wondering if you suggest tilling under or burning to prepare the ground.. I'm assuming you need to get rid of the grass/weeds to slow competition. Also what type of trees for privacy.. We're thinking shortleaf pine since they're native.. any gotchas we should know about them before jumping headlong into it?

[moonwolf]

Originally Posted by rambler

Get the weeds dealt with, then consider adding a legume to help supply more forage, as well as take care of your N needs.

--->Paul

can you give a bit more information about weed control?
I have a similar pasture, with one portion with more weeds and goldenrod, daisies and some buttercups mixed with red clover. what weed control method would you suggest before reseeding?

[rambler]

Originally Posted by moonwolf

can you give a bit more information about weed control?
I have a similar pasture, with one portion with more weeds and goldenrod, daisies and some buttercups mixed with red clover. what weed control method would you suggest before reseeding?

Well, I'g go for a good broadleaf spray, but I best ask first if you are for or against such practices.

Five or so years ago I split my pasture in 1/2, and only had the cattle on one 1/2, I made the other 1/2 as hay cutting & baling it 2x.

That made a _world_ of difference, it let the grass grow, & let the roots become healthy again. And many of the weeds did not like the mowing, and faded away some. I got lucky with the weather as well that year, was a good one for grass growing, so that probably helped me too.....

Your list of weeds don't like mnowing so much, so that might be an option for you to improve things?

--->Paul

[Bearfootfarm]

I have weed control for my pastures. I call them sheep. Theres not much they wont eat and many "weeds" are very nutritious

[rambler]

Originally Posted by Bearfootfarm

I have weed control for my pastures. I call them sheep. Theres not much they wont eat and many "weeds" are very nutritious

That can work, goats & sheep.

If you are not set up for rotational grazing, you may either overgraze in dry periods, or undergraze in wet periods.

With cattle & horses esp., this leads to promotion of weed growth.

If you have more growth than they eat, they tend to re-eat the same tender grass, letting the rest of the grass grow old, unused, and wasted. The tender spots get nibbled down to where it is hard on the plant, and weeds can start. The old tough grass spots the slow growing weeds can come through, undisturbed.

If it is dry & no grass growth, the whole thing gets eaten down to nothing, weeds & all. But the overstressed grass plants let weeds come through later.

Rotational grazing (dividing up into several small sections, graze one at a time, let grazed area rest for 28 days or so) more closely resembles making hay, where the grass has a long chance to recover & restore, and then the whole area gets eaten down clean, grass, weeds & all. The grass likes this, and becomes thicker & stronger. Few weeds like this, and tend to get thinner & less of a problem.

Good management of a pasture is important for max growth. So many times I drive by a pasture, and the horses or cattle are in 1/4 of the pasture, nibbling out the short overgazed grass, while the other 3/4 is over-ripe grass & weeds. The whole thing is going to waste.

I am not very familiar with goats or sheep, but I'm sure some of the same ideas apply in some ways.

--->Paul

[CindyOR]

You said you thought you might plant trees along the fence line. Boy, it just goes to show how different areas of the country area. Trees along our fence lines are like providing ladders to predators. Although the cougars can clear over 12' from what we've been told, our 6' fences are usually enough to keep them out - they haven't been hungry enough to expend the effort yet to go over those. But with trees to use as a jumping board, bobcats, and even coyotes, could get in. And those coyotes are just looking for trouble all the time. Depending on your predator situation, you might want to rething the trees along the fence line idea.

CindyOR

[pcdreams]

hadn't thought of that but its a valid point.. Though I had planned to set in about 10-15 ft. Don't know.. Just looking for more privacy actually. Lol

[Paul Wheaton]

The simplest, and possibly the best, thing to do is rotational grazing. Loads of people all over the country, myself included, have experienced drastic long term improvement with just that.

The next best thing is to test your soil and see what the story is. Then add lime and maybe some legumes.

Adding trees: probably an excellent idea, but now we're moving into territory where you could fill a book. Have you done much reading on permaculture?

[Rob30]

We bought our farm 2.5 years ago. Our pastures are not he best yet, but we have seen a drastis improvement just by rotatibg the livestock frequently, and cutting the excesss as hay. Goats and even our cows love the hay from the weediest fields. After the goats and cows have finished off a pasture, we let it recover for 3-4 weeks then we let the horses out. They do a great job of fertilizing the pasture and keep it clipped, which kills off many weeds. On really bad pastures we let the pigs out on it. They fertilize well. If you fence them into small pastures they will plow it under for you. On larger pastures they you feed them in the worst areas, they will till the areas for you. The grass comes in golf coarse green when the pigs are done, but you may have to fix a few divits.