Insulate with Paint?

[minnikin1]

Is this for real?
This additive can be added to ordinary house paint to help retain heat?

http://www.hytechsales.com/insulatin...additives.html

[dagwood]

I'd check that out with Consumer Reports before buying any of that.......

[TNHermit]

Were seeing this stuff around and hearing about it. as it says it has something to do with the ceramic and dead air. But it will be a while before its mainstream. there is also a lot of debate about what insulating means. Some sides are talking about reflective insulation and the other is on the fiberglass,foam and blown paper side shic is what people think about when you talk about insulation. Some paints are also vapor barriers now. I guess unless the cost is a lot higher it may be worth a try if that is your only avenue.

[Alice In TX/MO]

You can get radiant barrier paint with the ceramic microbeads in it already, or you can get the ceramic microbeads to add to paint. It looks like beige flour.

It's not a substitute for insulation. Just an additional method of conservation of energy, whether it's keeping your heat in in the winter or the heat out is the summer.

other sources:
http://www.heatshield-r20.com/

http://www.koolcoat.com/

Also found this from an employee of Hytec on another discussion board:

Hello,
I recently ran across this thread and would like to offer another viewpoint.

Please note that I want to be completely honest from the beginning. I am the Director of Operations at Hy-Tech Thermal Solutions. We manufacture and distribute insulating paints and additives for paint.

It is true that many "insulating paints" do absolutely nothing. The key to insulating value is based solely on the quality of the ceramic used. The chemical composition of the ceramic is important. The center of the ceramic sphere *must* be a hollow vaccum. These ceramics are extremely effective. Many companies use cheap "fly ash" or solid ceramics that have no value other than as a filler.
Even using quality ceramics, the amount or "loading" of these in a coating is of significant importance. Many companies put between 5-10 pounds of ceramics into a 100 gallon batch of paint. This allows them to call it a "ceramic coating". Our coatings contain 100 pounds per 100 gallon batch.....and our industrial line contains 200 pounds. This gives our coatings the ability to reduce utility bills by up to 35% (we have a customers gas bills on file) and lower steam pipe temperatures by 180-200 degrees with simply 3 coats of paint.

The technology of insulating ceramics was developed by NASA for the space shuttle. This is a fact that everyone seems to agree on. It is also a fact that NASA has an entire division devoted to nothing other than following their technology once it's been released to the public (Spinoff). This division spent 1 year researching every company in our industry. Our company was honored with their designation of being the industry leader in utilizing the technology that they have given the world.
We are the only company whose founder worked at Cape Canaveral. We are the only company that is 3rd generation in the coatings industry. What we do is our passion, not a way to make a quick buck.

Ceramic coatings can work extremely well, and make people's lives much more comfortable. Like any other commodity, it depends on quality.

[frazzlehead]

I used something like this (can't remember which brand) on the paint on my shed. I was living in the shed for 4 months while the house was being built.

Now, I don't have a board that I left unpainted to use as a comparison, but I do suspect it helped SOME.

Then again, I ended up living in that shed at -30C and NOTHING is warm enough then.

I think if you were painting metal and wanted to stop it conducting heat it'd be great. I think if you had lots of heat in summer and added it to the paint to help bounce heat back out, it might help. Subjectively speaking, when I put my hand on the wall of the shed that was in bright summer sunlight it didn't feel as baking hot as I expected it to. Not that this is scientific or anything.

It's not that expensive, if you had a spot you wanted to try it you could do a test patch. It does make the paint a bit ... textured, I guess is the word - not much but it's not satin smooth.

[minnikin1]

It sounds like it would be better suited to adding to stucco.
(Something you could apply more thickly.)
I wonder how much the product changes the life span of the paint.
I envision some peeling mess in 15 years....

[Alice In TX/MO]

It's my understanding that it's applied to the underside surface of the roof, like the back side of the deck. What you hit your head on when you are in the attic.

Not for stucco, which is on the exterior.

[Windy in Kansas]

The web site shows it may be added to interior or exterior paint.

Personally I would be more comfortable in dealing with a company that wasn't based in Florida. Seems we hear a lot of rip-offs coming from that state.

Whether the product works as stated or not, they do have a great web site which makes one want to believe in the proclaimed benefits.

[omnicat]

Fascinating topic. And as my house is insulation-less, I'm going to have to look into it.


Thanks for the links!

[minnikin1]

Based on the Seal of Approval from NASA, the excellent price of the product, the fact that we have painting to do, anyway, AND a serious lack of other alternatives, we have decided to give this product a try.
We won't be doing any painting until next year, so it'll be awhile until we can report back to you, but we'll definitely let everyone know how this stuff performs.

[Windy in Kansas]

BTW, did you all notice the "on sale" items listed. It is on the "What's New" page toward the bottom. Many items are 3 for the price of 2.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

Nobody has mentioned an R-value, even if this stuff was R-8 per inch (exceedingly good) and went on at 1/8" this would only give you R-1 insulation, or about the same as a single pane window, (which we all know is crap). Now if you had a metal building with an R value of .0001, this could make quite a difference, but I would rather spring for styrofoam board. Just my 2 coppers...

[tiogacounty]

Hate to be the doubting grump here, but I think this is pure, undiluted, BS. If is sounds too good to be true, it is. What everybody forgets with these snake oil claims, is that a lot of these products were pitched to the real players in the industry and they passed. doesn't matter if it's a magic paint, bubble wrap with more R value than a foot and a half of Fiberglas insulation, or a miracle carburator that gets 100MPG, if it was true, it would of flooded the market by now. They are very careful to attempt to totally discredit the internationally recognized science of thermal resistance measurement. Why? Well it's real simple, if the product is tested, and is proven to be the hoax it clearly is, then it's a little tough to sell. If you start out by saying that this product is so advanced that NASA approves it (bull) and it is way too advanced to be measured by standard (and deeply flawed) methods, it's easier to find a mark, opps I mean buyer. Sorry, but this one smells rotten, I don't buy it.

[minnikin1]

Originally Posted by tiogacounty

Hate to be the doubting grump here,...If you start out by saying that this product is so advanced that NASA approves it (bull) and it is way too advanced to be measured by standard (and deeply flawed) methods, it's easier to find a mark, opps I mean buyer. Sorry, but this one smells rotten, I don't buy it.

What do you mean when you say bull about NASA approval?
Spinoff is a legitimate source...
I think NASA has sufficient experience regarding heat and insulation - they've proven it by keeping astronauts alive through the high temps of re-entry. I have plenty of criticism for NASA, but not when it comes to
this technology.
I guess I just don't understand what part of this you think is bull.

Challenges to using R-value as the sole measurement of energy efficiency
are cropping up regarding many new technologies. (Straw bale and cob builders, for instance, have been trying to convince building code officials that thermal mass is an important part of the equation, for instance. They routinely have to remind code officials that the R-value factor was promoted by industry that had a vested interest.)
Refectivity is highly valued when it is used in the reverse - ie radiant barriers to prevent heat in attics. It wouldn't make sense if it didn't work as efficiently to keep heat IN.

[omnicat]

My walls have an R value of 2. That's "two". (cinderblock & stucco - not even drywall inside - just painted plaster). There is less heat loss through my windows than my walls.

I've got nowhere to go but up. If the R value of the paint additive is even half what they claim, I'm definitly interested.

I'm running the idea by my energy auditor and others to get opinions.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by minnikin1

What do you mean when you say bull about NASA approval?
Spinoff is a legitimate source...
I think NASA has sufficient experience regarding heat and insulation - they've proven it by keeping astronauts alive through the high temps of re-entry. I have plenty of criticism for NASA, but not when it comes to
this technology.
I guess I just don't understand what part of this you think is bull.

Challenges to using R-value as the sole measurement of energy efficiency
are cropping up regarding many new technologies. (Straw bale and cob builders, for instance, have been trying to convince building code officials that thermal mass is an important part of the equation, for instance. They routinely have to remind code officials that the R-value factor was promoted by industry that had a vested interest.)
Refectivity is highly valued when it is used in the reverse - ie radiant barriers to prevent heat in attics. It wouldn't make sense if it didn't work as efficiently to keep heat IN.

First your comment on R values is the same kind of paranoid thinking that makes these type of magic products viable. There is NO battle between the "vested interests" of the building materials industry and the bale, cob, acc, tipi, yurt or cordwall industries. The reason is very simple, they are a statistically insignificant portion of the market. Dow and Owens-Corning are not laying awake at night hoping that nobody discovers the truth about straw bale construction, because they couldn't care less. The issue with addressing alternative construction techniques is a matter of dealing with government drones that are charged with enforcing a code that adequately addresses 99.9% of the construction that takes place in our society. Their unwillingness to embrace alternatives has nothing to do with the vested interest of anybody but their governmental masters. On the NASA-magic paint issue, please post an official document from NASA that is an endorsement of a commercial product, especially a Magic paint that's available from a FL. mail order co. Good luck with that search,BTW, cause it isn't going to happen. P.T. Barnum said it best, there is one born every minute. Sorry, I have to go and water my magic beans.

[omnicat]

For those interested, I posed this to my energy-auditor (25 years experience).

Here's what he said about it:

This kind of paint isn't snake oil, but it's less than clearly explained in the ads. I've seen similar in the past, so you're maybe the dozenth or so person to ask about it. This paint increases the radiant heat reflectivity and absorptivity of the wall. It's similar to low-e or HeatMirror properties in some new kinds of glass. Sometimes it's a benefit (like in hottest summer and coldest winter days), but other times it's not a benefit, and it certainly depends on which side of the wall you put it on. Trying to estimate absorbed or emitted infrared energy involves using 4th power calculations where difference in temps makes a huge difference in achieved performance. When there's a greater difference, the effectiveness increases. So when the first ad says "can provide an insulation value comparative to R-20", that means 'during extreme conditions, but not always'. If you put it on the outside, it would likely be more effective on hot sunny summer days, especially if applied to a darker-colored surface. If you put it on the inside, it would likely be more effective on below-0 winter days, especially on clear nights and when there is ice on the ground. In other words, when the sun and/or temps are the most extreme relative to your home. I certainly would NOT assume R-20 for its typical performance most of the time.

If your walls are already cold and it's super-cold outside, it would have less performance than if the walls were warmer and a sudden super-cold weather front comes in. As the walls cooled down, the low-emissivity properties decrease. This paint also doesn't block cold winds which carry away heat completely differently. It also doesn't block heat losses where there is direct contact which allows conduction, as where the walls touch ground or an adjacent cold structure, or even snow or ice.

Generally, heat reflective materials are more effective for lowering summer AC costs than winter heating costs, especially since there's a lot of winter around here when it's cloudy and chilly (i.e. 30s and 40s outside). If you put it on the outside, it would reflect away sun which (on a cool sunny day like today at least) would soak into and heat up the concrete blocks. So if you decide to use it, start with the inside. Just don't assume anything like R-20.

[gccrook]

That's very good. It would not make much sense here to paint the north wall with this stuff, since it never sees any direct sun. The west, south and east walls on the other had could benefit somewhat on those direct sunny days. What reflective insulation does for you is to reducem the amount of heat your wall insulation has to hadle. R values are real, but somewhat deceptive in that they only convey one part of the heat loss/gain equation.

[omnicat]

He recommended that if I need to paint anyway, to use it on the inside walls of the coldest rooms in my house - and then report back. It does help some - just not all the time. But it's inexpensive enough...I do have painting to do in the next year, so I'll give it a try.

I''ll just be putting the idea of using it on the outside of my house instead of exterior rigid insulation in the dumpster. It was SO much cheaper - I had been crossing my fingers that it would be a lesser substitute. Sounds like it would be a really good idea if I lived someplace hot - like Texas...but my issue is with cold, not heat...

[minnikin1]

Originally Posted by tiogacounty

On the NASA-magic paint issue, please post an official document from NASA that is an endorsement of a commercial product, especially a Magic paint that's available from a FL. mail order co. Good luck with that search,BTW, cause it isn't going to happen. P.T. Barnum said it best, there is one born every minute. Sorry, I have to go and water my magic beans.

Wow, are you feeling a little uppity today?
The site info "that would never happen" is linked below.

When I searched the database for Hy-tech, i came back with 40 hits.

http://www.sti.nasa.gov/tto/

If you don't want to go there - here's a little blurb from the site:

"Spinoff is NASA's annual premiere publication featuring successfully commercialized NASA technology. For more than 40 years, the NASA Commercial Technology Program has facilitated the transfer of NASA technology to the private sector... Since 1976, Spinoff has featured between 40 and 50 of these commercial products annually. Spinoff maintains a searchable database of every technology published since its inception."