Selling timber??

[Queen Bee]

Well, we had a forester come and 'cruise' our property today. We haved decided to just have it thinned and not clear cut.. He seemed excited about the poplar, hickory, mapl, white oak and red oak and stated we will have lots of money in pines. We are suppose to get his quote and est. in two weeks.

He will market it, mark EVERY tree to be cut and collect bids for us. It is so scarey to think about cutting all these beautiful, mature trees and to know I will probably never live to see it like this again. But as we all know that it's either cut them or loss them (sooner or later). We have already lost 6 huge pines to the beetles. and three hardwoods blown over in a storm..

Any one have any idea what hardwoods are going for per board foot? pine?

Any suggestions, ideas that we can use will be greatly appericated... QB

[donsgal]

Originally Posted by Queen Bee

Well, we had a forester come and 'cruise' our property today. We haved decided to just have it thinned and not clear cut.. He seemed excited about the poplar, hickory, mapl, white oak and red oak and stated we will have lots of money in pines. We are suppose to get his quote and est. in two weeks.

He will market it, mark EVERY tree to be cut and collect bids for us. It is so scarey to think about cutting all these beautiful, mature trees and to know I will probably never live to see it like this again. But as we all know that it's either cut them or loss them (sooner or later). We have already lost 6 huge pines to the beetles. and three hardwoods blown over in a storm..

Any one have any idea what hardwoods are going for per board foot? pine?

Any suggestions, ideas that we can use will be greatly appericated... QB

We have some really incredible black walnut on the homestead as well as a good stand of cedar which is always in demand around here. But I would sooner cut off my arm than cut them down. Unless a tree is threatening your house or other outbuilding (or animals), my philosophy is let nature take it's course. If it falls down in a storm or is killed by beetles then cut it up for firewood or just let it be and return to nature.

donsgal

[MELOC]

i hope your pine is worth more than the 9 cents per board foot i was offered. i chose not to sell it. the sawmill owner told me the state of PA will sell him white pine for 4 cents per board foot. i also chose not to sell the red maple for 15 cents per board foot.

[rggambrell]

Unless you need the money I wouldn't sell. I told one of my neighbors if he saw me selling my timber-he had better bring me some groceries because I would be starving.

[Shepherd]

Originally Posted by donsgal

Unless a tree is threatening your house or other outbuilding (or animals), my philosophy is let nature take it's course. If it falls down in a storm or is killed by beetles then cut it up for firewood or just let it be and return to nature.
donsgal

That's pretty much what we do. Nature takes care of things pretty well for us. We have white oak, red oak, black walnut, cottonwood, etc. We get all our firewood from trees that are dead already; the only time we've had to cut any down was when they looked risky and would have fallen on the house. Much of our forrested land has 40-60 foot tall trees.

I've been told it's best to take the more mature trees out so the younger ones have a chance... I just have a hard time with the thought of downing those majestic trees. Too many forrests have been wiped out as it is.

Knowing that a forrester surveyed it and gave his recommendations is a relief. Let us know what you find out...

[boonieman]

From what I've seen around here, with select cutting and assuming it's good hardwoods the landowner share (rule of thumb) is about $1000 an acre. I've heard stories of folks making fortunes off timber, I just haven't seen that personally.

As for cutting trees before you lose them, I've heard that too. However, there's some woods around here that haven't been timbered in 80-100 years and I don't see dead trees flopped around everywhere. To the contrary, timber like this is very impressive in size and lack of undergrowth.

[hillsidedigger]

If the timber stand is all that good

I expect you should be offered $1500 to $2500 per acre or more (I'm in NC also).

If not, its money in the bank, leave it there. At some point in the not so distant future, available timber may become very scarce, so prices offered may leap.

If you decide not to sell any time soon and if you are so inclined and are able, I suggest the cutting down of the inferior (crooked, undesirable species, small) trees on the site to concentrate the site growth on the remaining superior trees. Plus, if this pre-commercial thinning is done, the shade from the remaining canopy will discourage sprouting and seed generation in the understory so that, after several years, if individual or groups of the superior trees are then cut, it will be their seeds that are on the forest floor to germinate and their cutoff stumps that will sprout, with the sunlight that then reaches the ground, for the next generation of trees. And if nothing else, this precommercial thinning will make the stand appear more attractive to a future potential logger for his job of removing trees will be easier.

Regeneration of a stand of trees should be thought about several years before the cutting actually occurs. Without at least small clearcuts, tree seedling planting is of little use.

[phantompark]

The market for hardwoods is excellent atleast up here in NYS.
My father in law had his 40 acre hillside logged 2 years ago. 2 neighbors are doing low impact logging. 2 guys, 1 tractor. They walk the property with the owner and marked trees, mutual agreement what gets taken out. So my father in law kept a tally of what was coming out. This was a general thinning not clear cut in any way. He is managing the lot, to keep harvesting about ever 10 years or so.
They had a individual come into to buy the logs right on the landing. The money was split 40/60 (landowner gets 60%). So my father in law made $40,000!!!!! This was moslty maple and some hickory.
This past month my father in law and younger son pulled out 30 full length trees to the landing and called the log buyer for pricing. The guy comes out measures it all, tallies it all up and cuts the check right there. $7,000 check in his hand that day for 30 trees. That afternoon the log truck came in and loaded up.
It pays to find someone to do low impact logging if you can't do it yourself.
You want someone who won't just be dropping trees left and right, damaging the remaining standing timber, ripping trails up, causing massive erosion.
Don't get taken!!!!! You have money there if you do your homework and manage your lot. It is your crop, your land and your responsibility to care for it. Don't let someone come in, take advantage of you, get rich off your lack of knowledge, and destroy your land.
Look up low impact logging, read up on it, don't be afraid to have lots of quotes and tell them you are "seeing" other people. My father in law took his time and found the right people. It paid back big time and well into the future.

[Ken Scharabok]

I agree with above except statement about beetles in pines. That is an entire pine stand loss waiting to happen.

Consider letting the mature pines and scrub trees be harvested and leave the rest IF, and that is a very big IF, you don't need the money for other purposes for the rest. Full harvesting, including selective cutting, for all would be the equivalent of drawing your equity out of a home with the hope of appreciation in the future.

If you have a mortgage on the property check with the holder before doing so as harvesting decreases property value at least for a while.

I own about 700 acres of woodlands. Predominately white and red oak with mixed species of others. Have been offered about $1.5K per acre to clearcut. However, I don't need the money and consider clear-cutting a rape of the land.

When I bought the farm I couldn't quite meet bank's financing requirement, thus agreed to have about 160 acres selectively thinned out. 15 years later can't really tell where it was done except for the odd stump still here and there. I also acquired about 300 acres after it have been mostly clear-cut. Ten years later it is starting to look like woods again. However, it won't have mature trees for likely 30-40 years in the future.

In my will my land goes to the local Soil Conservation Service. However, development and timber rights go to the Land Trust of Tennessee. SCS may own the land under the trees, but the trees themselves will belong to the Land Trust. Stipulation is the woodlands will never again be commercially harvested. 200 years from now it can perhaps be a nature study center with hiking trails through it.

[Alice In TX/MO]

IF you harvest, make sure you have an agreement with the timber cutter about clean up. Most of the time they just leave the mess where it falls, so you have a very cluttered forest. Lots of tops, limbs, and the trees they cut that turned out to be rotted inside left where they fell. Yeah, I've heard the argument about critter habitat, but I prefer the look of a more natural forest.

Think long and hard before you do this.

[just_sawing]

If you sell your timber this is the least profit obtainable

1000 board feet (bf) of Red Oak by Doyle

400 bf venear --------------$ 280.00
100 bf #1 --------------------- 45.00
400 bf #2 --------------------- 135.00
460.00
230.0 Logger fee
230.0 YOUR YEILD

Same tree you manage to sell to log yard

$ 460.00
70.0 fire wood
530.0 your share



Same tree but you saw (selling lumber green)

400 bf veneer yield $ 550.00
100 bf #1 160.00
400 bf #2 600.00
Saw cost _-200.00
795.00
Fire wood 70.00
slabs 10.00
875.00







#2 Process and Dry Kiln to 6% moisture


400 bf veneer $1100.00
100 bf #1 180.00
400 bf #2 (not dry kilned) 300.00
fire wood 70.00
1650.00
slabs 10.00
1660.00
dry kiln cost - 175.00
1485.00

Same but built in Quality furniture?

Now think about what we have done a truck load of boards in normally 2000 bf we have used 900 bf which is 1 or 2 mature trees and produced $1575.00. When was the last time you watched your family in one day of work produce this much.

[just_sawing]

Since the article that I prepared for a high school class was long I'm doing this in two parts.
Do Not trust the forester or any other single person to cruise, mark, and sell.
I am not knocking the forestry department at all but your timber is your buisiness. You own it and if it was a grocery store you wouldn't let a person come in open packages take what they want at what they want to pay. Timber is the same thing.
Number one you need to handle the pine problem. Start looking at your options. It may be better to have the pine cut and milled than to pulp it.
It is better to start on a small scale and experiment on what is best. Keep records and gain knowedge.

[Ramblin Wreck]

When cutting for myself, I always harvest the mature trees needed for a specific project or that need clearing to make way for gardens, orchards, or pasture. However, I helped my Aunt with a sale two years ago. She was offered $6K for a "select cut" of mature trees greater than a certain diameter; however, they were going to use large machines to harvest it. That meant that a lot of the smaller "stuff" would be ruined in the process. I found a clear cut bidder who offered her $45K for the same tract, and he left a lot of the smaller trees standing. I'd get bids both ways, just so that you can be an informed seller. I know clear cuts are not always the greatest thing, but this was quick growth pine and my Aunt was having trouble paying her monthly pharmacy bill and annual taxes. That made the decision easier to accept. Best wishes to you in whatever you choose to do.

[Queen Bee]

Thank you all! Great information and beleive me --when I say we have thought about this long and hard. Most of the timber is 50-60yrs old and it needs to be thinned alot. Many of the trees are way too close. We would never clear cut--unless we were about to lose the property which we are not..

A few good things we having going:

1. our dd#1 has a Masters degree in Fishery, Wildlife and Forestery and has offered to over see the thinning process for us. This protects our children in the future--since one day, the property will be theirs.

Secondly, we are only doing select cuts.

Third thing: we can still say NO if the price or process does not fit us...
Thank you all for your help and advice

[Shepherd]

I already had a guy stop by here a couple years ago, wanting to cut some of ours - I said no thanks. I figured without doing any research we'd get ripped off so I'm glad this thread came up.

We could always use the money but I will not do anything without long, careful consideration first - and we'll have the last say on which trees go and which do not. I wish I knew who to trust in this area for advice.

We have such a heavy stand of forrest, almost all the trees are straight as an arrow.

[brownthumb]

You should get about $50-100 per tree depending on diameter(minimum of 19 inches) quality and species. Trees should be harvested but with great care. I walked along with the forester and helped choose which trees would be cut. I tried to pick one and leave one if there were two together. Also, be sure to cut trees that are bending or already damaged and include these "cull" trees as mandatory to cut as part of the contract. Be sure to have a damaged tree clause in your contract. Some good trees you intended to keep will get damaged. This will improve the habitat for wildlife but it is so ugly for 2 years. After that you can barely tell a selective cut was done. The smaller trees will grow much faster. Never clear cut except for very small areas. Also consider having a few trees cut on your premises by someone with a Wood Mizer or portable saw mill. You can find these guys in the yellow pages. It's nice to have a pile of sawn boards instead of paying top dollar at Home Depot.
I love nature but letting trees die and fall over is a waste of a precious natural resource. Just be prudent and always use a forester who will represent you. Realize of course that they know all the loggers and are good friends with them. They will earn their 15% commission and keep you out of trouble with neighbors, zoning, liability, etc. They also want to get as much for the trees as they can because that's how they get paid. One more thing. Stay out of the way but check on the loggers periodically to make sure they are not being too sloppy. After they are finished make sure they re-seed areas eroded and cut tops to below 4 feet. You should be given a preliminary inventory of which trees are to be cut and estimated board feet. The various loggers in the area will then bid on the offer. Don't cut any trees that you don't want to.

[Ken Scharabok]

The state forestry office is an excellent place to start. As noted they do timber cruises and can likely provide a list of timber cutters they have dealt with in the past. Rather surprised they would get bids directly rather than simply providing a survey report and list of potential loggers. May vary by state. When I needed some of mine cut for the morgage pay down the state forester recommended a private cruiser who then got contact bids on flat fee basis.

I heard about one timber scam. Three loggers worked together. They worked on out-of-state land owners. Party A would offer to purchase timber at say $X. Party B would offer X-20%. Party B would offer X-10%. A's offer looked pretty good then. However, they simply rotated who got high bid and often worked together on the same operation on a truckload basis.

[patarini]

Tn forestry or ag dept has a price list updated quarterly i believe
http://www.tennessee.gov/agriculture/forestry/tfbp.pdf
current prices are listed in there
untill i find someone who uses mules, no one cuts my timber.

[Ken Scharabok]

Patarini: Contact your state forester. They would likely know of anyone in your area who still logs with mules and horses. If there are Amish or Mennonites in your area also check with them for a referral. Small sawmills are a frequenty business with them.

[Michael W. Smith]

Just be made aware that after logging, the place will look horrible! Remember they only take the logs - all the tree tops are left as is. If you cut it up for firewood that would be best, because if alot of trees are cut in the same place you end up with an unpenetratable mess!

As for your thoughts that you HAVE TO cut every so often - that is not true. Go to a state park that old forest growth. There are grand and majestic trees growing that keep on growing. Due research on when logging was originally done in your area - you will see HUGE logs that were from huge trees.

It is true that if a tornado would come along, it could very well wipe out every single tree in the area. But as for the "fact" that you "must" cut out mature trees - that is something made up by loggers to get you to sell.

I did have some logging done, and there were huge majestic red oak and other trees that I refused to let be cut. I figured if they were hardy enough to grow to that size and nobody had the opportunity to cut them, they can continue to grow. If by chance they do happen to die - then that is nature's course and the animals will have an old tree to hollow out and live in. For the truly huge majestic trees I would rather let them die and rot rather than to have them killed off by a logger.