NAIS in VA - the Henshaws

MullersLaneFarm · #1 09/29/06, 10:37 AM

I'm horrified!

Here it is in Cindi Henshaw's own words:

Quote:

This our story…first hand. Do with it as you please. You have our permission to use it to your advantage. We thank you for your concerns.

This is a true story about a little ranch in (very) rural Buckingham County, Virginia. Its name is Dancin’ Hills Ranch.

My husband and I own 152 acres and he has run a private wild boar hunting club for 16 years. This was very first of its kind in Virginia. Please know that he is not a “fly-by-night” hunter. He was 1 in 10 in the nation at one time for professional archery, he was a producer, as well as hunted for a TV show out West called “Wild and True”. He ran a very decent club, with hunters from the Pentagon and Quantico as frequent guests. They came here to have fun and de-stress. Our place was peaceful and a retreat for many. He did this as a hobby because he loved the sport and the company. We made little, if any, money off of the place once we made the land payment and paid for the feed and fence upkeep. My husband has served as police officer and a state trooper. He worked narcotics and sexual abuse cases. He is what you would call “a good man”.

On September 12, 2006, at 5:00 in the morning, we were roused out of bed to a knock on our door. It was the Game Warden. He was here to arrest Danny on a Class 2 Misdemeanor for “operating a mammalian shooting enclosure without a permit”. Now that whole issue is a story in its own and one best explained by my husband. Long story short, he did everything he was supposed to do 16 years ago and was “grand fathered in”. When he started the preserve there was no other and he went to authorities to make sure of what was required. That was the last he heard until September 12th.

On May 20, 2006 an agent had “harvested” a pig. The same hunter/agent had come back on September 9, 2006 and killed another pig.

As my husband was taken off the property in the wardens car, they could hear over the scanner, “Okay, we can go in now, he’s off the property.” At that point 9 vehicles/SUV’s/4-wheelers came up our driveway, lights glaring. Game wardens were posted and we were told we could not go near the preserve. It was under armed guard; the game wardens being requisitioned by the State Vet to guard them. (From us?)

They had a Quarantine Order and the “special agents” began to immediately kill our pigs.

We were not allowed to have any information. No one would answer our questions. The only thing we were told was that the order called for 10 pigs to be killed and tested, if they turned out okay, they would kill another 10, if they turned out okay they would then kill up to 30. All during this time we were given no news.

We were told that the State Vet was at a “command post” nearby and was due at 7:00 am to pick up samples and it would take a few hours before they knew anything. We waited. Although the killing continued, no one told us ANYTHING. When we tried to ask, the Game Wardens could only say that they were there just as security and knew nothing about it until 4:00 that morning. The USDA agents would not talk to me.

The shooting went on into the night, all night. The guards were on duty 24 hours a day, 3 shifts, even if the agents were not. During this time we saw one of the jeep-type vehicles with a cartoon drawing of a pig with the words “HOG DOWN!” written on the dirty back window. There was also a young blonde female that jumped off the back of the 4-wheeler and “high-fived” another agent after a kill. It was only the beginning.

On Thursday, September 14, my friend and I were in my home. She had come up to be with me. I heard 12 gunshots coming from an entirely different part of our property. As I looked at her, I knew that they had killed our two pets… I had raised these two pigs from 3 days old. I bottle fed them during the winter and kept them inside in a crate. They were sweet and gentle. The local 4-H clubs came to visit them and pet them. They were a local “point of interest” for church groups and family. We loved these guys… They were exactly 5 years 7 months old on the day they were shot. Cupid was over 500 pounds; Valentine was almost as big. (Yes, they were born on Valentine’s Day.) These pigs were in their own pen, on another piece of property altogether, not attached in any way to the preserve that they had quarantined. They were not tested; just killed while I listened. I was given no warning, no head’s up. I just heard the shots. I looked out the window and a few agents were driving up the driveway on 4-wheelers. Other agents were at the site. Our pets were chained and pulled over the grass into our gravel driveway. They left the drag marks and blood behind. I reached my limit and broke down.

This type of activity went on for 11 days. On our property, at our home. 24 hour armed guards to keep us off the preserve. Day and night vehicles came and went. USDA trucks, jeeps, 4-wheelers, State cars, game wardens and requisitioned stock trailers and trucks. The trailers hauled off the killed animals, taking them somewhere to be incinerated. We think it was to either Lynchburg or Roanoke. I did get one agent to tell me that the tests were “probable”.

Now, it is important to know a little about pseudo rabies, which is what the original quarantine paper stated. This disease affects the reproduction of the stock. The sow’s litters will be aborted, still born or mummified. It is transferable form stock to stock by contact or for a short distance, airborne. Our stock is totally fenced in, quite well, I might add. Our stock comes into contact with no other stock. They lived on approximately 70-75 acres of dense wood. I state, unequivocally, OUR PIGS HAD NO SYMPTOMS OF THIS DISEASE. Symptoms include sluggishness, malnourished and coughing. Our stock was healthy, robust and extremely fertile. (What hunter would want a malnourished, sluggish pig?)

On the 11th day, September 22, one USDA agent, one representative from the Virginia Department of Agriculture and one game warden (for safety, remember?), came to our front door. They told us that they wanted to leave, but they could not catch all the pigs and that they were at their wit’s ends. They had shot them, starved them for days, put out corn for them (after the starving), used trapping devices and pens, numbers of “special agents trained for this kind of thing” (quote), and they FINALLY ask my husband (the expert) to help them. They wanted to know if they left corn, would he feed them and once caught, would he kill them FOR THE VIRGINIA DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Amazing. They also left a key to the lock they had placed on the preserve. We never locked it…we closed it with a chain, but it was never locked. They estimated that they had killed 79 pigs.

Now, the irony of it is this:

These pigs were so diseased that they were a threat to the state of Virginia. They were so diseased that not only did it take special agents to kill them, the State Vet personnel had to put on white suits and gloves and masks. They left Danny (the criminal) in charge of finishing their job.
That these pigs had pseudo rabies, which inhibits their reproduction. The majority of the pigs that they left were babies, piglets. As in, not aborted, stillborn nor mummified! If they had this disease, why so many healthy, agile, quick, smart (at least smarter that the special agents) pigs still running around? Our stock was superior in size, agility, speed and they LOVED their living conditions. These pigs knew the game. They knew that they were well fed, taken care of. Once in a while one was sacrificed for the others. But they were happy (if pigs can be happy.)
We listened to the pigs getting caught in snares, being shot over and over. We watched them be driven down the driveway, dead. We could not do anything or Danny’s bond would be revoked.

That was Friday, this is Sunday evening. We still are having a hard time believing this happened, in our country, on our property, by our officials.

Danny has since taken pictures of the pens, the trash left on our land from their lunches/dinners, boards and used gloves outside the preserve, covered with blood, used toilet paper at various and asundry places accompanied by the reason for such.

This is our home. This place was peaceful. Serene.

Danny and I feel as though our pure land has been raped. We have been degraded. He was arrested and taken in on a Class 2 misdemeanor, like a criminal. I was left here with an army of uniformed officials and no answers. I didn’t know whether to call for help to raise money to get him out or to call an attorney. I was told by one of the game wardens that one of the agents told him I needed to round up my dogs (pets) because the undercover agent saw a dog with my husband on the day of his hunt. They would need to kill him also. I was petrified. I was also told to gather my tax documents. My husband did not return for 3 hours.

I am not exaggerating the facts. I don’t need to. The reality is far worse than my imagination. As of today, we have heard nothing on the test results. We have no way of refuting anything these departments have to say…the evidence has been incinerated.

MullersLaneFarm · #2 09/29/06, 10:38 AM

continued:

Quote:

At this point we cannot believe anything they would have to say. THEY killed our pigs, THEY tested the animals, THEY took them away, THEY have the results, THEY left us to clean up the mess. They never considered our rights. They never respected our feelings. It is a tragedy. Our place is “sad” (I can’t think of a more glamorous description). We are heartbroken, but not broken. This situation has literally brought us to our knees with sorrow, but it is from this very position we will regain our strength. We are country folk, trying to get along. But this does not mean we are either stupid or weak.

We appeal to you as a human being. What would you do if it were your home?

Willis River Hunting ~ Danny Henshaw
Route 2, Box 68G Gladstone, VA 24553
danny@willisriver.com

(434) 933-8455 Phone

**ladycat** · #3 09/29/06, 10:41 AM

There have already been 2 topics on this that I've noticed. Someone posted it at my forum, too.

**highlands** · #4 10/02/06, 07:16 AM

The government documents regarding the Henshaw Incident:

http://nonais.org/index.php/2006/09/...shaw-incident/

are now downloadable at the end of this article:

http://nonais.org/index.php/2006/10/...haw-documents/

Alternative link: http://NoNAIS.org and then look in the right
sidebar under Technical Documents:Henshaw Incident Documents
which leads to this web directory:

http://nonais.org/techdocs/HenshawDocs/

jnap31 · #5 10/02/06, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ladycat

There have already been 2 topics on this that I've noticed. Someone posted it at my forum, too.

I dont think their ever could be enough since the media is ignoring it, it's up to folks like us to get the word out.

wolfhavyn · #6 10/04/06, 09:54 PM

My heart goes out to the Henshaws. I am appalled, heartbroken, scared and royally ticced off about this. Unfortunately I am not surprised. I don't think that anything "our" government will do to us can surprise me anymore. It sounds to me like the Virginia officials decided they needed to make a horrible example out of someone. If Virginia did it when will my state (Kentucky) do it? And to who? When will all the other states decide to do it? Its past time to start fighting, folks. Even if all we can do is fire off letter after letter to our senetors, congressmen, whoever...at least thats something. What a tragedy....

**ladycat** · #7 10/04/06, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnap31

I dont think their ever could be enough since the media is ignoring it, it's up to folks like us to get the word out.

5 topics that I know of at my forum, HOT topic.

http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index....pic,989.0.html
http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index....pic,985.0.html
http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index....pic,995.0.html
http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index....pic,998.0.html
http://stopanimalid.org/forum/index....pic,997.0.html

But yes, the word needs to go out EVERYWHERE.

fellini123 · #8 10/04/06, 11:14 PM

Ok here are a few sites.

http://www.uselections.com/va/va.htm
http://allen.senate.gov/public/index.../contactme.cfm
http://webb.bluestatedigital.com/page/s/contact
http://warner.senate.gov/contact/contactme.cfm

The first link gives web pages for all Virginia Government. I think if they all got a few hundred questions from people about this travisty if nothing else it would start to raise some questions.
There is also a link on that page for all Virginia Newspapers. Can we say letters to the editors???

Alice in Virginia

patarini · #9 10/05/06, 12:49 PM

Again if everything they say is true, where is the false arrest lawsuit for holding her at gunpoint for a week or whatever? Thats called kidnapping and its a crime. Holding her for 10 days in her house by threat of force is multiple crimes. Sorry but to me something doesnt ring right == and normally i would jump on their side, i mean they would have witnesses out the rear, in 10 days who knows how many people drop by or call!
But this still has nothing to do with NAIS anyway!

mamajohnson · #10 10/05/06, 01:17 PM

Has nothing to do with the NAIS?? OH PLEASE! have you been under a rock, or what???
Sorry, but I sit here, reading this womans account of the RAPE of her land, YES RAPE, and I am in tears, KNOWING this can happen to any of us.
I do believe it has everything to do with NAIS. If they can flex their muscles and scare us, well, heck, they can have anything they want!!!!
Geeze ! We need to send letters, emails, phone calls, whatever and get the governments side of this story. What would it benefit the Henshaws to lie about this? NOTHING! Many folks have talked to them, and this has been verified over and again. I dont know why they havent filed all sorts of lawsuits, maybe they have! non-the-less, if WE the PEOPLE dont speak up we will be in her shoes too.
Personally, I dont know how she contained herself. I cannot say what I would have done, but I dont think I would have been able to sit there. Probably would have ended up like Ruby Ridge, or Waco...

No one can say what they "would" do, unless they stood in these folks shoes, and I dont want to stand there, I want to fight it NOW!

jnap31 · #11 10/05/06, 01:55 PM

I agree mamajohnson I think we have not heard the last of this Henshaw story either, Why dont some of you wondering about lawsuits call or write the henshaws and ask them?

homebirtha · #12 10/06/06, 07:50 AM

She WAS NOT held in her house by armed guards for 10 days, or whatever that one account would have you believe. She wasn't held in her house AT ALL! Noone was allowed on the hunting preserve itself, while they were shooting the animals, for, I hope, obvious reasons. And to her credit, that bit about being held in her house didn't come from her own words. I wish the person who wrote that part would make a correction, because it seems to be the issue that has fired people up the most, and it's incorrect, which is just sad.

So, I'm curious... If their herd did have pseudorabies, what do you feel should have been done? Mamajohnson, if your pigs had pseudorabies and officials came to destory them, are you saying you would kill the agents or die trying?

And I agree, tying this to NAIS is ridiculous. Especially considering it's not even enacted yet, and from what I've read, this "preserve" wasn't registered. If the USDA overstepped their bounds, they need to be held accountable. But saying it's because of NAIS is totally missing the point. If they did overstep their bounds, they did it WITHOUT NAIS. They're already doing it. Get it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

Has nothing to do with the NAIS?? OH PLEASE! have you been under a rock, or what???

Personally, I dont know how she contained herself. I cannot say what I would have done, but I dont think I would have been able to sit there. Probably would have ended up like Ruby Ridge, or Waco...

mamajohnson · #13 10/06/06, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by homebirtha

She WAS NOT held in her house by armed guards for 10 days, or whatever that one account would have you believe. She wasn't held in her house AT ALL! Noone was allowed on the hunting preserve itself, while they were shooting the animals, for, I hope, obvious reasons. And to her credit, that bit about being held in her house didn't come from her own words. I wish the person who wrote that part would make a correction, because it seems to be the issue that has fired people up the most, and it's incorrect, which is just sad.

So, I'm curious... If their herd did have pseudorabies, what do you feel should have been done? Mamajohnson, if your pigs had pseudorabies and officials came to destory them, are you saying you would kill the agents or die trying?

And I agree, tying this to NAIS is ridiculous. Especially considering it's not even enacted yet, and from what I've read, this "preserve" wasn't registered. If the USDA overstepped their bounds, they need to be held accountable. But saying it's because of NAIS is totally missing the point. If they did overstep their bounds, they did it WITHOUT NAIS. They're already doing it. Get it?

Ok, I will bite... I have nothing better to do right now.....
The above account does not say she was held in her house... And I did not say she was held in her house...so I dont know where that came from..
What do I feel should have been done? WELL, for starters, they could have followed their own protocal, and tested first. If there is a disease it just doesnt figure to leave blood everywhere, especially if it is a contagious disease. Just what has been accomplished by this outrage? a fuss amongst us? well, that was beneficial, wasnt it? Oh, and just as a little added fun to the discussion, how would you feel if there were feces and McDonalds cups left on YOUR land? Probably would be no big deal, huh?
Did I say I would kill agents? Gee, it isnt enough to put words into the account, now your putting them into my mouth? Well, like I said I dont know what I would have done, but I dont think I could have sat in the house and watched it all go on. (whether gaurded or not) They would have had one mad Mama J on their hands, and I just hate to loose my temper, but the Irish does come out now and then...
What I am saying is this thing is just as unjust as Ruby Ridge and Waco were, (some dont feel those were unjust - I do) just as unjust as the FBI going in yesterday and "raiding" the spinach factorys. And those words came from Fox news, not from me.
Hey, you are entitled to your opinion. So am I. I am also entitled to fight all this insanity, and not give up my feedom just sitting on my rear!
Look around, my dear, NAIS isnt all we are contending with. We have Real ID, super highways connectiing Mexico, the US and Canada, and probably tons more I haven't found out about yet. So, you are welcome to go on and just blindly trust. I have always been the sort to question what is up, and what motives are.

GrannyCarol · #14 10/06/06, 11:02 AM

I want to point out that it is likely this incident happened partly to pressure us to go along with NAIS, to be afraid to speak up because of what might happen to us, our houses, our animals. So, yes, I believe there is a strong tie in to the NAIS bill.

As for countersuits - seems to me that any good lawyer would keep that quiet until it was in the works, wouldn't they? How do we know there isn't? Perhaps they are disheartened enough to be a bit slow in filing, that had to be one huge shock.

As for the pigs themselves, there is a protocol on the USDA website that makes good sense and it calls for testing the pigs and "depopulation" AFTER the tests come back. There was a quarantine order, that ought to have been sufficient. Also, even if the hogs DID have psuedorabies, they would have been perfectly fine to slaughter for food. There was absolutely no need for this 5 am "raid", no need to make a horrible mess of these people's home, no need to destroy their livelihood.

This was a scare tactic and it was designed partly to see how people would respond to it. I expect whether or not NAIS passes, we will see more and more of this. It was a training exercise also. We are being conditioned to expect and to accept this sort of behavior from our government officials. Will it go past the killing of animals? We already have Waco and Ruby Ridge. Of course it will, it already has.

Are there "black heliocopters"? A few years back, if you said anything about them, you'd be laughed at and scorned as a "conspiracy nut". A couple of months ago one came to our small local school to recruit for the Army and it was COOL to the kids. No one thought twice about it. Will the people of America wake up? I find it amazing that we have apologists for wrongful governmental action anywhere, but especially here on a "Homesteading" forum, where you'd expect to find those people that hold more traditional American values - things like the Constitution and our rights.

Some of you probably wonder where I see a connection, but the connection is in the rich and powerful men that actually run this country trying to see what they can get away with and how far they can push us today. The NAIS legislation is a big step in giving up our personal freedoms, but it is just added onto the general climate of oppression and tyranny that is building in this country. Are we not today much more afraid of things than we were several years ago? Are we not daily fed fear of "losing our identity" or "terrorists" or of disease in our food supply? And... as we are fed those things, we give up the right to grow our own healthy local food, to buy from the farmer down the street. Why? because we are afraid of the government, or of the things they tell us to be afraid of! It is ridiculous!

~ Carol

caberjim · #15 10/06/06, 11:57 AM

Wow. First, as much as I dislike NAIS, this was not NAIS related - NAIS is not in effect yet. To call it a NAIS training exercise, to compare it to Ruby Ridge and Waco, to bring up black helicopters and conspiracy theories - well, makes you look like a wacko. And it is not going to help the No NAIS cause if you keep making the general population think that all anti-NAIS people are tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts.

I doubt this was intended as a scare tactic for other small farmers otherwise they would have publicised it so that everyone knew about it. What would be the point anyway? Scare small farmers into complying? Most already are.

A training mission? Are you suggesting that once NAIS is implemented, the black helicopters are going to swoop in guns blazing to kill goat herds? Really now.

Army recruiters at your school? Big deal. They had them back at our schools in the 80s. Just like they had Coast Guard recruiters and college recruiters and a variety of local trade union reps. I hardly see how that fits into NAIS or the Henshaw incident and it just hurts the credibilty of whatever argument you are trying to make.

I have some issues with the story. Where was their lawyer? He was a former police officer with lots of well connected clients so he certainly should have known someone. Why didn't they contact the press while the slaughter was going on? 11 days of this and no pics, no lawyer, no videos, no press? Odd, I'd be documenting everything.

There was a piece on this in a local paper. Good articel and the author actually did some research.
http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs....610040308/1006

Apparently Henshaw was not the only Hunt Club they went after. There seems to be some confusion over whether the 2 clubs were legally operating or not which will have to be hashed out in court. Throw in the positive tests and they do have issues.

Clearly the authorities were way to heavy handed and their communication was exceedingly poor. That is the issue that should be addressed and the owners should be able to get justice and restitution thru the court system as well as any apologies that they are due. But trying to linking NAIS, black helicopters, Waco and Army campus recruiting to show this incident as a govt conspiraicy to enslave the populace is just killing any kind of credibilty the no-NAIS effort may be able to gather.

arabian knight · #16 10/06/06, 12:18 PM

I also can't in any way see this connected too or in anyway related to USDA's NAIS Program~!.
As that is many years down the road if and When it even takes place. And another thing, this is a Game Preserve is it not? And who rules that? Not the USDA, but the Game and Fish or the DNR or BLM or whom ever is in that State does. Not the USDA at all. So this doe not connect to the USDA and its program NAIS that they are working on. I wish people would know just what agencies things like this is under instead of saying USDA and putting that as a blanket statement in controlling what went on. Sure there were USDA Officials there, BUT the USDA was not the controlling agency in this situation as many have been saying.

homebirtha · #17 10/06/06, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

Ok, I will bite... I have nothing better to do right now.....
The above account does not say she was held in her house... And I did not say she was held in her house...so I dont know where that came from..

From the article, which was where a lot of this discussion started:
http://nonais.org/index.php/2006/09/...shaw-incident/
And linked in this thread that started this whole conversation:
http://homesteadingtoday.com/showthread.php?t=143289

Here is the quote:
"Danny and Cindi were held under armed guard around the clock and not allowed to move around to see what was taking place."

This was mentioned in patarini's post above, and it has been discussed in several of these threads. People actually think she was held in her house by armed guards for 10 days. Come on now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

What do I feel should have been done? WELL, for starters, they could have followed their own protocal, and tested first. If there is a disease it just doesnt figure to leave blood everywhere, especially if it is a contagious disease.

My understanding is that there was testing. As for the blood, I would tend to agree. Although I think psuedorabies is only transmitted from respiratory secretion and is airborne. So if they had tested, and your pigs were +, then what would you want done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

Did I say I would kill agents? Gee, it isnt enough to put words into the account, now your putting them into my mouth?

Umm, you said you would go "Ruby Ridge or Waco" on them, which most reasonable people would take to mean that you would start shooting at them, that you would make an armed stand against them. That's not putting words in your mouth. That's why I was asking you to clarify what you said by "going Waco" on them. Guess you didn't really mean that then? Ok.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

Hey, you are entitled to your opinion. So am I. I am also entitled to fight all this insanity, and not give up my feedom just sitting on my rear!
Look around, my dear, NAIS isnt all we are contending with. We have Real ID, super highways connectiing Mexico, the US and Canada, and probably tons more I haven't found out about yet. So, you are welcome to go on and just blindly trust. I have always been the sort to question what is up, and what motives are.

Please show me where I said we shouldn't fight NAIS. Please tell me where I ever said to blindly trust the government, where I said this occurence didn't deserve scrutiny, and action if it was done illegally. You are completely missing my point. Tying this raid, and then black helicopters and Waco (according to some), into a rally against NAIS is only going to hurt the cause of stopping NAIS. It makes us all look like we're members of the tin-foil hat club. People like Carol making this sound like some conspiracy are only going to hurt the cause, not help it. The average citizen, whose support we need, is going to think we're ALL wackos. We're not going to get their help by saying, "See, the government is after all of us. They're sending black helicopters after our pigs next. Here sign this petition." It ain't gonna work.

My other point is... everyone is jumping to conclusions that this was all illegal, that the pigs weren't sick, that the government is all bad, and these hunter/owners (not farmers BTW) are all good. All I'm saying is, let's see all the facts first. Maybe the animals were carrying this disease. What then? The agencies involved certainly took a very heavy-handed approach, and now they are doing investigations of the actions. Let's see what becomes of that before we go out looking for black helicopters flying over your wheat field.

mamajohnson · #18 10/06/06, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrannyCarol

I want to point out that it is likely this incident happened partly to pressure us to go along with NAIS, to be afraid to speak up because of what might happen to us, our houses, our animals. So, yes, I believe there is a strong tie in to the NAIS bill.

As for countersuits - seems to me that any good lawyer would keep that quiet until it was in the works, wouldn't they? How do we know there isn't? Perhaps they are disheartened enough to be a bit slow in filing, that had to be one huge shock.

As for the pigs themselves, there is a protocol on the USDA website that makes good sense and it calls for testing the pigs and "depopulation" AFTER the tests come back. There was a quarantine order, that ought to have been sufficient. Also, even if the hogs DID have psuedorabies, they would have been perfectly fine to slaughter for food. There was absolutely no need for this 5 am "raid", no need to make a horrible mess of these people's home, no need to destroy their livelihood.

This was a scare tactic and it was designed partly to see how people would respond to it. I expect whether or not NAIS passes, we will see more and more of this. It was a training exercise also. We are being conditioned to expect and to accept this sort of behavior from our government officials. Will it go past the killing of animals? We already have Waco and Ruby Ridge. Of course it will, it already has.

Are there "black heliocopters"? A few years back, if you said anything about them, you'd be laughed at and scorned as a "conspiracy nut". A couple of months ago one came to our small local school to recruit for the Army and it was COOL to the kids. No one thought twice about it. Will the people of America wake up? I find it amazing that we have apologists for wrongful governmental action anywhere, but especially here on a "Homesteading" forum, where you'd expect to find those people that hold more traditional American values - things like the Constitution and our rights.

Some of you probably wonder where I see a connection, but the connection is in the rich and powerful men that actually run this country trying to see what they can get away with and how far they can push us today. The NAIS legislation is a big step in giving up our personal freedoms, but it is just added onto the general climate of oppression and tyranny that is building in this country. Are we not today much more afraid of things than we were several years ago? Are we not daily fed fear of "losing our identity" or "terrorists" or of disease in our food supply? And... as we are fed those things, we give up the right to grow our own healthy local food, to buy from the farmer down the street. Why? because we are afraid of the government, or of the things they tell us to be afraid of! It is ridiculous!

~ Carol

Well said Carol... and I agree wholehearted with you,,,wacko that I am......
Perhaps Carol, we have been around longer and seen more, and are in fact more weary of these things?

MELOC · #19 10/06/06, 01:26 PM

i think the connection to NAIS is the tactics that will be used. it will be just like what happened in VA.

why were the procedures of quarentine and testing not utilized? the real wackos are the ones who raided the farm without following established procedures.

caberjim · #20 10/06/06, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mamajohnson

Well said Carol... and I agree wholehearted with you,,,wacko that I am......
Perhaps Carol, we have been around longer and seen more, and are in fact more weary of these things?

Ahhhh, I see now. If only I had your ageless wisdom and years of whatever it is that you think makes you so much more knowledgeable in the ways of the world. Then maybe I could see the black helicopers too.

As it is, you are making it darn difficult to present a reasonable sounding argument to the rest of America as to why NAIS should be opposed. I connect NAIS to black helis, waco, mark of the beast and the rest your argument, people I know fuzz out and dismiss the whole conversation as the ramblings of wacko.