cougars vs coyotes?

kesoaps · #1 09/01/06, 03:27 AM

Tis the season for baby coyotes to make their debut. My 'pet' coyote that's been hanging out here all summer now has friends...pups? Not sure, doesn't matter. The entire valley was in song this past week.

This morning a neighbor spotted a big cougar down at my folks' place, just a mile down the road. No doubt the cat's been hanging out all summer; my mom told me the girls (grandkids) had found a deer leg that'd been gnawed on earlier this week. There have been plenty of deer all summer long, and an abundance of rabbits like I've not seen in years, so there's plenty to eat aside from leg of lamb.

My sheep are down on a neighbor's pasture, though, around the corner where I can't see them, and where there's not really any reason a cat shouldn't come along and have a little snack. Except that the coyotes have their dens nearby. So I'm wondering if the howling will keep the cat at a distance, what with the already abundant table out there?

BaronsMom · #2 09/01/06, 06:47 AM

Coyotes will also kill sheep. If a mountain lion is hungry, a coyote with pups isn't a deterrent. Do you have guard animals? Are you moving your sheep this winter? Good luck -I'd be nervous

big rockpile · #3 09/01/06, 06:59 AM

Both are Predators,both will kill Sheep.Mountain Lions are more dangerous than Bears! Mountain Lions and Coyotes kill Deer,Mountain Lions more so.

big rockpile

big rockpile · #4 09/01/06, 07:01 AM

Oh another thing using Coyotes to guard Sheep is like having the Fox Guard the Chicken House!

big rockpile

bill not in oh · #5 09/01/06, 07:42 AM

Mt. lion -vs- coyote.... My money's on the cougar. One sheep is a lot easier to catch that 40 rabbits.

kesoaps · #6 09/01/06, 09:26 AM

LOL, Big Rock...I hadn't thought of it in terms of using a coyote to guard a sheep, but I guess that's what I was thinking, eh?

Yeah, I know both will kill. Just wondered if the noise from the coyotes would have the cat moving around them. There's plenty of game; as I said, more dear and rabbits than we've seen in years. Can't drive down the road without dodging a deer all summer long. In fact, I've got pics of a big 3 point wandering through a residential section inside the city limits...twice! (Out this way, that means three points on each side...some of you would call it a six point.)

The lambs are here at home, but the adults are around the corner. There is a house right there, but I know that won't stop a hungry cat or coyote...they just aren't that hungry right now. And no...no other guardian animal at the moment. Found a maremma at a shelter, but they insisted it was an indoor dog...

suburbanite · #7 09/01/06, 11:48 AM

Cougars are by nature very shy of people and human artifacts. If there is adequate wild prey they're much more likely to avoid your pastures, with all their icky man-smells, and stick to what they know.

If you do get predation, and I know, I'm a city slicker by comparison and all (my wildlife information comes from doing volunteer work for the state parks here), but I hope you'll try to identify the individual animal involved and not just blanket-kill that species in your area.

Have you looked into whether there's any kind of inexpensive security camera that could watch over your flock area? Some of them have good night vision. You could see if the predators are 'casing the joint' when they're in the area, or just walking across the field to get from point A to point B. It might give you advance warning of a problem if you see them trial-stalking your livestock.

Maura · #8 09/01/06, 11:57 AM

Predators usually try to stay out of each other's territories. If the cougar is finding enough to eat where he is, he doesn't have reason to leave his niche. I'd worry more in the spring when romance calls

suburbanite · #9 09/01/06, 12:00 PM

Maura, I thought that was species-specific avoidance. A cougar will avoid another cougar, but pretty much ignores coyotes unless he thinks he can steal something they caught, or unless the coyotes are harrying him (sort of the way blackbirds harry hawks).

BaronsMom · #10 09/01/06, 12:34 PM

Come winter and the deer begin to move, those sheep will look darn tasty.

kesoaps · #11 09/01/06, 02:48 PM

Come winter, the sheep will be back home. They're just there now to give this pasture a rest and get some good grazing in for the next couple months. I suspect they'll be fine...the coyotes tend to leave them alone and I think the cat will find enough game elsewhere for the time being, considering how noisey the coyotes have been. Good thing for rabbits and feral cats to feed those pups, though!

Suburbanite, in the past 30 years, cougar sightings in this area have increased from practically zero up to several times a year. The one yesterday walked through my folks' driveway instead of sticking to the trails and trees. One neighbor who lives on the lake saw it walk down their boat ramp to get a drink (there are several uninhabited areas nearby, like within 100 feet...it didn't choose to use them.) Another woke up one morning to find a cat outisde her bedroom window, about ten feet way. Yet another was about to leave for work, only to find one napping in the sunshine not far from her deck. She banged her door and screamed at it, trying to scare it way. It just closed it's eyes and went back to sleep.

It used to be we could use dogs to hunt these animals, but since the city dwellers decided that was cruel and unfair, we've instead got a population explosion. They only issue five permits a year here, so if there are several sightings in one area, they let the hunters know where that is. But without a dog, it's rather tough to catch a cat!

They may try to steer clear of danger, but they're not as bashful as most of the 'experts' would have us think. They're hunters. They're not afraid and they certainly don't avoid human scent whenever possible.

suburbanite · #12 09/01/06, 03:22 PM

kesoaps--an increase in sightings, but any increase in actual incidents?

the cougars in the park where I volunteer have about the same reaction to humans as you describe (there aren't livestock in the park to judge how they'd behave regarding them). When a human is near, they either pick up their head, look, and go back to sleep, or quietly slink away as quickly as possible. But they don't bolt or panic unless they're too close once they notice you. They also do not stalk or follow people, except by chance--they do use the hiking trails just in wandering their territories and people have reported being followed but it is more of the nature that the people stop for a granola bar and a cougar turns a bend on the trail, realizes there's a human ahead, and bolts away. The biologists who have studied them have said that while you don't want to push it with them, they are not a danger to people unless they exhibit more aggressive and focused behaviors like deliberate following. What they're doing now is more recognizing us as objects in the environment, more akin to a moving tree than to prey.

We haven't had a cougar in my neighborhood in years, due to engulfment by additional suburb (we hid knowledge of the one who used to wander through, afraid the cops would shoot it). But it sounds like if you've got a bunch of game for them to eat, that is the reason for the population boom. Maybe what you really need is for the locals to eat more deer and bunnies, so that the best game is farther from where you are and the predators follow.

Shoot a deer, you can eat it, shoot a lion, it's really a waste. Somehow I feel the former is more ethical than the latter. Maybe I'm just weird...I also advocate shooting only the individual animal who offends, as I've stated earlier in the thread. As habitat is destroyed if we want animals in the world we have to find ways to live with them in the same space but with non-intersecting lives.