Anyone used Insulated Concrete Forms?

[Randy Rooster]

I am seriously thinking about a house using ICF's, due to hurricane activity in my area. Just wondering if anyone has had any experience using or living in a house constructed in theat manner.

[frazzlehead]

We used them for the foundation ... what would you like to know?

[wvpeach1963]

I've built several houses and used the insulated forms for the basement.

For starters they almost double the cost of a regular basement.

They are pre set for utilities to run through the wall and save a little there.

great set up, but if you are handy , and get the materials reasonablly the same effect can be had cheaper with some good old do it yourself work.

[cricket]

I've worked on some and know people that live in them. They're great for the hurricanes but don't believe what they say about savings in utilities cause there ain't none. Also, be careful about moisture barriers because they sok water like a sponge and if you're drywall isn't at the required distance from the walls, you're going to have serious wicking problems. Several condos here are in lawsuits over that issue. Guy had a million dollar painting ruined due to the wicking. And make sure you hang windows as ifyou're hanging them in an EIFIS house.

[blue gecko]

Our house is ICF and partially solar. We've had no wicking problems at all (our dry wall is right up against it even in the basement. There are some considerations in dealing with all that thermal mass and definitely some designs that would not optomize its advantages. I would definitely do it again.
I'm not trying to bash Cricket. In fact Cricket's experience is well worth noting...if you decide to use ICF your plans need to be thoughtfully and carefully worked out.
I'm not an expert but I'll be happy to share our expeniences with ICF. B

[PyroDon]

If your speaking of the styrofoam forms good luck .

[painterswife]

Our company uses ICF's for basements and one employee has built his home with them.

They are great. You need to waterproof them, just as you would with any structure that touches earth. Simply follow the recomended installation instructions and you should have no problem.

[tiogacounty]

Like most "alternative" building techniques, take everything the manufacturer claims as either partially truthful, or pure BS. Regardless of any claims to the contrary, expanded polysyrene (white beadboard foam) ABSOLUTELY wicks moisture, retains moisture, and is a very effective media for mold growth. The majority of foam products are very vunerable to insect infestation and can be a great home for carpenter ants and a hiding place for termites, if the conditions are right. I had a personal experience, very similar to the disasters involving the EIFS "Dryvit" stucco and foam siding mess. I built a stick home that was sided with plywood, then Tyvek and a layer of extruded polystyrene. The windows leaked and allowed water to penetrate the structure. In less than five years the exterior walls were failing. The rot was so severe that some of the headers had composted, and turned to a rough, potting soil type of material. This damage was mainly due to the foam and it's ability to trap moisture. The garage walls were built with all the same materials and leaky windows, but,the garage did not have any foam sheathing, The garage plywood showed slight water staining below the windows, but no damage, since the wall was able to dry out between rains. I have built foundations using the foam forms and IMHO, I will never own a home that uses foam as a structural or exterior insulation material. I think if you research the situation, you will find hundreds of cases involving disasters in residential construction that were a result of foam sheathing and water, and/or insect damage. Good luck.

[painterswife]

"This damage was mainly due to the foam and it's ability to trap moisture"

You are blaming the problem on the insulation instead the improper building procedures.

Open cell foam insulation has open cells that can hold water, therefore the proper installation of materials is required. Obviously the windows or their installation caused the problem.

I have a home built with Structural insulated panels, in other words, lot and lots of foam.

We have no problems because we did it right. Proper window installation, proper flashing and drainage planes. If it was the material you would have the basis for a law suit.

Jill

[CatsPaw]

Onyl following this thread loosely, but, foam is made in different ways. The pink board is not the same cell structure as the white cell structure that is not the same as the blue cell structure. I would probably guess the white styrofoam would wick moisture, but not the pink or blue. I can't remember if the pink has the membrane laminated on it like the blue, either.

[painterswife]

It depends on the on whether it is open celled or closed cell.

Here is a good article. http://www.sprayfoam.com/spps/ahpg.cfm?spgid=6

[Randy Rooster]

I had not heard or thought about a wicking problem before- is it due to water coming up from below or getting in through an opening in the siding? I have heard about the fake stucco- in fact there are a number of homes in my area that are in the class action lawsuit against the fake stucco manufacturers- but from what I have read, the majority of the water damage was from improperly installed product. Builders did not follow the manufacturers recommendations, specificaly when it came to window and door openings. I am really looking for some real world experience here- particularly for the house walls and in the humid south.

[kuriakos]

I built my whole house with ICFs and haven't had any problems. Just double-waterproof the walls from footer to roof instead of switching to dampproofing above the high water table. And I have seen a HUGE savings in energy costs. Cooling my 4200 square foot ICF house costs slightly less than my brother pays to cool his 2000 square foot stick frame house just up the street. Both are sealed envelope buildings.

[Mallow]

I plan on using pre-cast concrete to build my house in the spring. Similar to ICF but they just bring in the sections on truck and crane them into place. I will be keeping detailed records and let people know how it goes. The house design is for a passive solar earth shelter so should be interesting.

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by painterswife

"This damage was mainly due to the foam and it's ability to trap moisture"

You are blaming the problem on the insulation instead the improper building procedures.

Open cell foam insulation has open cells that can hold water, therefore the proper installation of materials is required. Obviously the windows or their installation caused the problem.

I have a home built with Structural insulated panels, in other words, lot and lots of foam.

We have no problems because we did it right. Proper window installation, proper flashing and drainage planes. If it was the material you would have the basis for a law suit.

Jill

First of all I am not "blaming" anything or anybody. The technique of using extruded polystyrene as an exterior sheathing is common, and allowed by code. It is also a horrible idea as it creates a 100% effective vapor barrier on the exterior of the home. Thus, if there is any water penetration, it will not diffuse, and will start a process of rotting and molding. Your assumption that you did everything correctly on your own home is just that, a guess and a hope, mixed with a touch of arrogance. To date you have no problems that you are aware of. This does not mean that you built a home that will provide decades of trouble free service. I could easily write on this subject for dozens of pages based on research, real world experience and doing major repairs to several structures where foam, (both expanded and extruded) was a primary factor in a chain of events that lead to serious problems.there are many factors to research when building an energy efficient dwelling. There are many drawbacks with using foam as a structural material or exterior sheathing. The fact that you are not currently experiencing issues with your structure means little, in the big picture. As a builder with decades of experience in everything from timber framing to plain ole' vinyl sided tract houses, I see many reasons to stay far away from foam block construction. Since this particular construction technique has been around for a significant time period with no real market penetration, obviously, I'm not alone in avoiding this idea. I hope the original poster listens to one thing I have said in my first post. Most "alternative" building techniques need to be viewed with a health dose of skepticism. There are good reasons why foam block, cordwood, strawbale and other techniques remain on the fringe. Often the reason is that all the hype glosses over the truth. BTW, in a few weeks I will be starting a SIPS house. I don't hate foam, I just know that there are a few places it doesn't belong, including underground, in contact with insects and used as an exterior sheathing.

[painterswife]

"Your assumption that you did everything correctly on your own home is just that, a guess and a hope'

No assumptions here. I have done the electrical and plumbing in this house and continue to work on things still not completed. I am in the crawl space and loft on a weekly basis. We have lived in this house for 5 years. I know there are no problems.

I too am in the construction industry as is my husband. "Alternative Building practises" are not on the fringes. They are slow to gain acceptance because they intial cost more and they have a learning curve. If they are worth while they make it. Pex plumbing is the perfect example. 5 years ago it was on the friinges. It is now close to be a standard.

While I agree that all of them are not perfect systems, I do think that the instalation and building practises are what makes the difference.

For example, anyone can frame a wall, but with out the proper shear wall, blocking and nailing patterns, it too will most likley fail.( unless someone overbuilt)

Jill

Jill

[tiogacounty]

Jill, I have repaired a number of disasters involving mold, insect infestation, and water infiltration where the homeowner didn't notice any issues for years. The one thing that all the ICF proponents avoid discussing is the inability to inspect the outside of underground foam. Foam underground is vulnerable to damage from backfill and soil settling, insect infiltration, rodent infestation and water penetration. So, unless you regularly excavate and inspect your foundation, you clearly have no ability to have confidence in your statement that everything is just fine. I suggest you review the issues last time foam insulation below, and at, grade was " the new great idea". In the 80s. All the alternative building folks (And I was one!) sang the praises of wrapping the whole foundation in foam. Two inches of dow Blueboard was typical. Then the questions started. Why is this house full of carpenter ants? Why are they sucessfully avoiding any attempt to eliminate them? The answer? They are migrating through the foam insulation and cannot be treated properly. Then the pest companies stopped warrantying their work if the house didn't have an 8" gap in the foam above grade. Other disasters were created with EIFS finishing systems. One member here incorrectly stated that that was a workmanship issue. Building a building that requires meticuliously detailed installation techniques, workmanship, and lifetime maintanence to avoid water infiltration and a subsequent disaster is just plain stupid, not a workmanship issue. The bottom line is that there is far too much field evidence of failures related to foam as a structural or exterior insulation material. If yours is working, great. Will it outlast a well build stick house? Doubtful.
Sorry, but from a market penetration perspective, alternative building techniques are clearly on the fringe and have very little impact on the two million homes built in this country every year. This is a crime and we will pay for it dearly, as will our grandchildren. The average new home built is a disgraceful waste of space, materials and energy. that still doesn't mean that things like ICFs matter in the least to the average home buyer. Don't confuse products like PEX as being alternative. In the last 15 years there have been at least three major changes in the stick building industry. OSB has become, by far, the dominant sheathing product. Vinyl windows have nearly driven all other competitors out of the ring. Copper piping has become a rare sight indeed. This has nothing to do with the wonders of alternative products. It is ALL about the bottom line. Customers will not spent ten thousand more for a house that has five ply fir plywood sheathing, Anderson wood windows and copper plumbing. I would, and did, but the average Joe couldn't care. Once it became clear that PEX was a reliable product it became the standard, not because it's better, because it costs a small fraction of copper. Every alternative building technique is a fringe activity for a lot of very good reasons. Some are great, some are horrible, and most will never really have any impact in the scheme of things. Every single alternative technique comes with serious baggage. If it's initial cost, code acceptance, high labor costs, questionable longevity, or a dozen other factors, there always is a down side. I always hope to provide a balance to the starry eyed trash you read in places like Mother Earth News. "We build this 2500 ft home from cedar mulch and tires for $7 a sq. ft." It might sell magazines, but it doesn't have much to do with reality. Your ICF house, lovingly and carefully built, in a dry climate like yours, might provide decades of service at a very low cost. The same house built in a wet climate, by the typical high speed, low quality crew that bang houses together today, could very well be in trouble with a few years.

[painterswife]

My house is SIP's not ICF.

I have nothing against balancing" the starry eyed". It is needed! I just think that you drift towards dropping them off a cliff.

Jill

[tiogacounty]

Originally Posted by painterswife

My house is SIP's not ICF.

I have nothing against balancing" the starry eyed". It is needed! I just think that you drift towards dropping them off a cliff.

Jill

Interesting. first, I apoligize for missing the fact that you have a SIPS home. As I said, I'm starting one next month, in SD for a Habitat project.
I think this particular style of foam wall construction is pretty much a huge step above most of the other energy efficient techniques available. I did another house in MT. that was super insulated with traditional fiberglass, double walled and everything. It was probably even superior to a typical SIPS house, but what a PITA to build! As for your comment of "throwing them off the cliff" , glad to hear it! There are far too many dreamers that gravitate to the alternative side and really get hurt. They fall for the claims of the suppliers, proponents and other dreamers and end up in a mess. Cordwood and log homes that leak and rot, strawbale homes that are far more expensive and difficult than than ever imagined and on and on. So if I rain on somebody's parade by sharing all the disasters I've researched, repaired, (and on occasion created) hopefully somebody is listening. Have a good one...

[painterswife]

Can I ask where in South Dakota?

I am hoping to start a new home(for us) close to Sundance, Wy later this year or spring?